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Nov. 29, 2022

Above Everything, It's the Players w/Pat Sullivan

Above Everything, It's the Players w/Pat Sullivan

S2 #5. My guest today is Coach Pat Sullivan, who has over 600 wins as a head basketball coach and has been ducted into eight different hall of fames over his 44 year career. In 2010, Coach Sullivan retired from the University of St. Francis, where he spent 34 years earning 500 victories, and leading his team to either a first or second place finish 15 times. However, as he will tell you, his proudest accomplishment is having 98% of his seniors graduate.

Referenced in this episode:
Coach Sullivan's books

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Transcript

Pat:

All of 'em were great readers. Not only reading basketball, but just life. They were great readers

Luke:

Welcome back. My guest today is Coach Pat Sullivan, who has over 600 wins as a head coach and has been ducted into eight different hall of fames over his 44 year career. In 2010, coach Sullivan retired from the University of St. Francis, where he spent 34 years earning 500 victories, led his team to first, second place, finishes 15 times. However, as he will tell you, and it's one of the first things we're going to discuss, his proudest accomplishment is having 98% of his seniors graduate. So Coach, let's talk about that. First of all, are you aware of the national average? Cuz when "I heard the statistic about you, "I went back and looked at where that ranks.

Pat:

Luke. Now, "I would have to clarify what, what you just said is it was 98% of the seniors who played for us now the NCAA "I, "I felt this was wrong. If a youngster comes to you as a freshman and he leaves, you know, we give partial scholarships, so maybe he just didn't have the. To continue whatever the reason he would count against you. So "I thought, that's nuts. If kids are playing as seniors, they had better be graduating. So that's why we did that percent that the guys who were seniors, if they didn't graduate well you coach too, Luke. If they don't graduate, you're looking out for yourself. You're not looking out for.

Luke:

So why is that your proudest accomplishments? "I, we, we talked about the introduction. "I mean over 600 wins, multiple championships, eight different hall of fames, which is amazing. Like why is that such an important accomplishment, these kids going on and graduating from your university? "I?

Pat:

Look "I think you're like this in 34 years. When we went in to talk to a senior, in high school trying to recruit. Meet with his mom and dad, sit at the kitchen table. Never once did we begin with athletics. We began with getting your degree. I, remember transfer from a division, "I said to him, now John, the whole key here is you're coming to St. Francis. You gotta get your. He said, "I don't like school. This kid was a very good player. "I said, well, if you come to St. Francis, you're gonna have to like it And then he went to play overseas. Uh, after his senior year. He didn't graduate right away, but when he came back, first place he came was to see us and he did get his degree. So that's just how strongly "I. Luke, it's all about when you come to college, the reason to come to college is to get your degree. That's why "I like the small college level, you know, we don't have enough money to cheat So, you know, so you're doing it the right way. At most colleges, if they look at their, uh, statistics, "I bet most of the a "I, a NCAA one and two are at or better or close to that 98%

Luke:

So let's go back 44 years ago. What was the first really big lesson you learned as a head coach that resonated with you and you kept throughout your 44 year stellar career?

Pat:

"I started at Providence High School. And our ad was a fellow named Tom Deed who went on to be the, baseball coach at the University of Illinois. Now, Tom, Tom could have played football for you. Luke Tom was a tough guy, and if you came in and you weren't a quality teacher in the classroom, he'd get. you know, how some coaches can get dedicated to their coaching and kind of push the classroom away. You couldn't do that with Tom Deton. So that was the, first best lesson that "I learned about coaching.

Luke:

Well, there's no doubt that great coaches make great teachers. Great teachers make great coaches, right? That's something that, you know, has resonated with me, resonated with me throughout my career, nowhere near as long as yours. Hopefully one day it will be. And to that point, what motivated you to stay in a profession so long? Because "I feel like now more than ever, coaches are burning out, they're disenchanted, they're walking away from the profess. Younger and younger. So what was your motivation and how did you have the stamina to stay in it for 44 years?

Pat:

The players, I was privileged to coach some great kids, and that's what kept me going. The quality of young men, uh, Gordy Gillespie, who you knew. that was one of the things when we walk, walked the hallways at St. Francis. Both of us would say how blessed are. To coach the quality of athlete that we have here. So above everything, it was the players.

Luke:

One thing "I really love when "I get to talk to coaches. Regardless of high school, collegiate, even at the youth level, regardless of where their school's located, rural, inner city, suburban. One thing "I love hearing coaches say is we have the best kids because that's what we all should be saying, right? We should all feel like we have the best kids because our job. Is to see the best in them. And if we don't see the best in them, our job is to bring out the best in them. So it warms my heart when "I hear people say that, because that tells me the coach is in it for the right reasons.

Pat:

I, "I. You know, "I couldn't agree more with you. And, and again, if you're at the higher level, and "I had some chances to go to that level, but if you're at the higher level, the only thing they're interested in is winning, You don't win, you're gone. And as far as development of young men or young women through the vehicle of athletics, that pretty much doesn't count. And, and in a rare exception was the guy who played at Weber, named Mike Chesky. Mike's first I think three years. He had pretty bad losing seasons, but the ad knew he had a quality man and he stuck with him. And, you know, Luke, that was also true with Dean Smith, the great North Carolina coach. He came back from a road game and he looked up in a tree. The students had hung them in ef. I used to work part-time for Medalist. you know, And "I had the chance to. Imagine this to work with John Wooden, "I McGuire, Dean Smith, you know all those, all those fellows, and you could, you, you got to know the quality of them. by the way, including Bobby Knight. May "I tell you one story on

Luke:

Absolutely love to hear stories.

Pat:

okay? When the medalist clinics, now the Nike clinics would come to Chicago, Because "I traveled the country on weekends for 'EM, directing clinics, but they, they developed, this was the best type clinic, Luke, that "I, that "I ever went to a one man clinic, only one speaker, and they would get Ubi Brown, Bobby, 19 Smith Cetera. So on Friday for about three hours, the coach would talk about his philosophy. Offense, defense discipline, just philosophy. Saturday, you'd go for almost seven hours in the gym and you would have college players there to demonstrate for you. So we're at, uh, proviso West actually for this. Now if you're a freshman in college or a senior and you have to demonstrate for Bob Knight, "I would think you're probably nervous. We walk into the venue, literally there were 800 coaches at the clinic. Now you're really nervous. So the first, uh, drill that Coach Knight gives our kids, they couldn't have messed it up More "I mean it was a. The coaches laughed. Knight went to the middle of the, of the gym. He said, coaches, I'll tell you what we're gonna do. He said, these kids probably got up at five six in the morning to help me help you in your coaching. He says, so if "I hear anymore laughing, here's what we're gonna do. I'm gonna pick 10 of you guys. You're gonna come down. You're gonna demonstrate and the kids are gonna sit right there in the front row and laugh at you guys. You never heard 800 people get so quiet,

Luke:

Yeah, "I don't. "I. Don't blame him. Coach Knight said that to me. "I would shut up really quickly too, and "I mean that. That's a great story. And you really reference the Mount Rushmore of basketball coaching there and getting to rub elbows with those great coaches like Coach Wood and Coach Knight. Coach Caming is there. A common element. Is there a common characteristic that all of those great coaches had and shared that you noticed?

Pat:

All of 'em were great readers. Not only reading basketball, but just life. They were great readers you know, and they, they were genuine. "I mean Knight was genuine. That's who Knight was. Knight was very good to coaches and John Wooden and Dean Smith, they were consummate Gentlemen, and there wasn't any, any frills about 'em. And "I always said this, see what you think of this, Luke. Maybe the most important, asset that we can all work on is the ability to listen. So now we're in New York, we're at dinner. A junior high coach is with. I'm sitting in the middle and then John Wooden is sitting to my right. Now, if you thought that speaking was the key to intelligence, you would've thought the junior high coach was John Wooden and John Wooden. the junior high coach, because Coach Wooden, he did most of the listening while the junior high coach did most, most of the.

Luke:

Love it. And you know, you talk about a platform that makes your coaching style unique and "I. Think Coach Knight had a very unique platform. Coach K has a unique platform. You too had a unique platform and you had to go into someone's living room and talk to mom and dad and talk to this 18 year old kid and tell 'em why they should come play for you. So what makes your coaching philosophy unique? "I mean? What is your platform?

Pat:

I "I. Guess I'd have to start with I want you to graduate so there's no ifs, ands, or buts about it. If you come and play for us, the basketball will be really important. You know, "I mean we beat a couple NCAA division "I schools through the years. and that was wonder. But the main thing was seeing the kids graduate and you know what the other next thing was? Okay, now we're on the road. We probably played in 30, 35 different states from New York to California to Florida, all over the, all over the country. Look. And we used to say to the kids, now look, We don't hang around with the people who own the. Our people are the people who clean the rooms. So you guys better be completely respectful of those people who are cleaning the rooms. Just, and, and "I ha "I have to say, you know, because we did have good kids, they, they responded to that. And many times when we left hotels, the manager of the hotel. We hope you guys will come back. You know, so for traveling with college kids all over, like we did, "I was very proud of our kids. let me give you this expression "I think you'll like this if you've never heard it for your coaching Bill Russell, 13 years in the NBA 11 championships. We were happy with Michael in six. Okay. Bill Russell said here was one of the things with the Celing that when they entered the door for practice or for a game, they took their individual egos and left them outside the door. However, he said, this is what we had team. We had Team Ego and that Team Ego was kind of saying, to the opponent, if you're to beat us, you better bring a great game where "I still coaching Luke "I "I would talk about team Ego to the players fairly often to re remind me.

Luke:

Great stuff, coach and "I. Love the point you brought up a few minutes ago about how those great coaches embrace reading and they embrace listening and that really resonated with me cuz one, I'm an English teacher and it drives me nuts how much kids today. Don't read and fail to recognize the value in reading. It also drives me nuts how much they will not listen, and as soon as you are about to coach them, they immediately get defensive and start trying to justify why they did what they did and how many times "I have to say just. Just stop. I'm not, I'm not criticizing you, I'm just coaching you. So take the coaching point and make the next rep better. And those are just two things that are really near and dear to my heart reading and listening. With that said, "I need you to critique my generation of coaches and then the generation even younger than me. What do you think we can be doing differently to be better coaches?

Pat:

I. Think discipline. And discipline isn't a bad word. You know you are teaching life values to these kids. Often they may spend more time during the season, each day with you than their mom and dad. You know, so you're always teaching life failures and, and "I and "I think this, now this is kind of maybe controversial, but, I think the kids of today want discipline. They want it, they know how important it is. You know, we used sometimes have to practice at 6:00 AM and we would simply tell the. Don't be late cuz we're gonna close the door. You know, don't be unfair to your teammates by not being prompt and "I. Think all the values that we, we can teach kids through athletics. that would be the number one thing. "I "I, I'd say, you know, instill discipline and it's not a bad word in them for their. Yeah, "I. "I used to tell one of our players, he was constantly late, so Luke, he drove me nuts. And "I would always say to him, you know, Ron, when you get your job, and if they want you there at 6:00 AM you better be there. And if they want you there 'til midnight, you better do that. So "I was constantly on them about being on. He's the chief accountant for one of the top hedge funds in Chicago. So, You know, another thing people say, they won't work as hard as we did. "I don't believe that either. "I think if you're, you're organized as the coach, you're enthused about what you're doing. And the most important thing, like Rick Majors used to. People don't care how much you know till they know how much you care. And once the kids know you'll you care. They're gonna run through a brick wall for

Luke:

No doubt. And that piece on discipline, "I "I agree with you "I. "I think that it's not a bad thing and we have to first educate our players that it's not a negative connotation. Somehow the word discipline has turned. Negative and "I think that really from the beginning of time, "I mean "I. Obviously "I can't prove this scientifically, but human beings are wired to be disciplined. "I think we all crave that. There's that famous Vince Lombardi quote about discipline. So "I absolutely agree with you and it's, and "I don't wanna go down this rabbit hole, but the lack of. Discipline in our schools it's driving me nuts that we have completely missed the mark and how important it's in instilling this into kids. So, yeah, "I mean, people will say, oh, you're, you're a throwback coach. I'm like, why am "I a throwback coach? Because you instill discipline, cuz you demand. I'm like, then that's fine. If that's the way you wanna label me as a throwback. Coach "I think it's one of the most important things we need to. As a coach is to instill that discipline and those expectations, those life skills that, as you mentioned, your former player who was always late now is managing this large hedge fund, which hopefully he's a big donor to St. Francis now, right? You gotta go hit him up for those donations, but absolutely, uh, absolutely agree with you. You hit the mark on that, you know, in addition to coaching. You're also an author and "I was doing some research on the two books that you wrote and planning on picking both up. "I love to read, one book, attitude, the Cornerstone of Leadership, the other book, team Building from Bench to Boardroom. And to our listeners, "I will link both these books in our show notes. "I, wanna start with your why. Why did you decide to write a book?

Pat:

Players I had developed a talk and you know, like you, Luke, you're, you're asked to talk at banquets and so forth when you're in coaching. So "I had developed a talk where "I used the word attitude as an acronym, giving each letter the characteristic of what might be a quality leader. And one of my former players said, why don't you, write a book? And the same thing with the team building. After we wrote the first one, he said to me, well, what about team building? Why don't you think of, writing one on that? And on that one, what what "I did. "I picked 20 things that "I thought Luke were important in building a team in coaching. Then "I researched each concept. In business literature, and this isn't gonna surprise you at all. The concepts that work in athletics are gonna be the same ones for a leader in business. but "I was encouraged by one of our players who knew technology, by the way, so

Luke:

Yeah.

Pat:

so he helped

Luke:

there's a backstory to that comment. By the way, for those of you listening right now, we had some technology issues going into this, so go ahead.

Pat:

Yeah, so, Tom was just, his name was Tom Kennedy. He was, he was the genesis for those books, and then he helped with all the technology that this old man had no idea about it.

Luke:

let's talk about the writing process. "I have found that when "I write, cuz "I. "I, enjoy to read, "I, enjoy to write, "I, enjoy to talk. Imagine that an English teacher. "I learn a lot about myself when "I take a pen to paper. That's one thing "I love about writing. What did you learn about yourself as you started to go on this process, this journey of writing novels?

Pat:

Well, "I, I'll tell you, as "I was writing, I learned about the importance of attitude. Although "I knew it and "I talked about it, when you're actually putting pen to paper, you realize how important it is. And the same with the concepts for team building. So "I, think what "I learned about myself that what. In the books "I really believed in.

Luke:

Let's talk about that attitude and one thing "I know you believe in is that attitude shapes a leader's effectiveness. Explain that, dive into that thought a little bit more.

Pat:

Well, the way "I "I, in fact, "I just read this morning in my reading, that when you wake up each day, you can make a choice. You're either a, duck or an eagle. Now a duck quacks and complains the whole day. An eagle soars above the clouds and I. Think your attitude, is everything. Well "I mean when you break it down. what's more important than the attitude that you bring to your. Each day because the kids are gonna, they're gonna emulate that. so "I guess that was the, the biggest thing that, when all is said and done and you cut through all the nonsense, the attitude you bring and "I think what Rick Maje said from, uh, John Maxwell. If people know you care, that's what it's all about. And that's the. Characteristic that we started out the team building book with, uh, and "I thought the most important.

Luke:

Staying on this topic of leadership, I've heard you talk about the fact that leadership is not about the words that you speak, but rather it's the way you conduct yourself. Explain a little bit about that.

Pat:

Think "I. Think that's everything. how did St. Francis say it preach the gospel? If necessary, use words and "I love that quote

Luke:

"I like that.

Pat:

yeah, "I love and "I think his prayer is the best prayer ever written. but when you think about it, how did, Steven Covey say in the seven habits and he wrote that at the bicentennial, in the first 150 years of our. Substance was the main thing that was about integrity. Hard work. That's what America was about. He said the last 50 years, so that would be 20 19, 26, 19 76, he said, image has become more important than substance and "I. Think, look, we, we can look at a lot of things in America. This person said all the right things, but that's not what he did and that's why I "I. Think with coaches, you know, "I can go back to Gordy Gillespie with coaches. I mean. You knew when you played for Gordy how much he cared about you. Therefore, well, like "I mentioned earlier, you, you, whatever you already want you to do, you, you did it to the best of your ability, and that was the expectation, not in games Every night in practice.

Luke:

So one thing "I really struggle with, and it's definitely a hole in my coaching, is intentionally teaching leadership to my players. Cause "I "I totally agree with you that "I try to lead from the front "I, try to be the person. "I want my players to be complete alignment with you on that coach. But how do "I intentionally teach my players how to be leaders? The.

Pat:

Well, "I disagree with you. "I think you're already doing it because you're giving values to the kids that you know will really help 'em in life. And you, you can talk all you want about leadership, you're doing it. And the kids are seeing that you're doing it. Yeah. So "I, Think you're intentionally talking about St. Francis. You're talking about leadership, but you don't need words. You're showing them

Luke:

Let's go back to your book on team building and you referenced the, 20 core concepts to building winning teams and "I. Don't wanna go into all 20 cuz we don't have the time for that, but. Why don't you just kind of give us a peripheral view of some of those core concepts, some of the ones that really resonate with you, and just kind of touch upon that for our listeners, if they could take away some of these core values of building winning teams.

Pat:

By far caring about the kids is the most important thing. Another one, "I think is knowledge. We have to be working at learning our game. How about this friend of mine, Pete Turkic, played for John Wooden's last team. Now, coach Wooden at that time had nine national championships behind him, seven in a row, he was 65. And Pete said how often he kept saying how much he was learning about. So you gotta have knowledge and it's gotta be, you gotta be a lifelong, learner. Um, how about this one? Humor, "I. Think it, the great coaches. Can "I tell you one story about Gordy?

Luke:

Yeah. And then when you tell me about Coach Gillespie, and then you need to tell me how Coach Knight injected humor into his program.

Pat:

Oh, believe it or not, Knight did, so we practiced at a park called Garey Park in Joliet for football. Now you had all the area. Where you could break down offense, defense lot area. Then you had a fence then Right in the fence part was a graveyard. So Gordy's got the offense right by the fence and they were just doing timing plays. No D So Gordy gave him a play. They totally messed it up. He didn't say, Gave him another the same play. Do it again. same result. Gordy didn't say a word the third time they screwed it up. Here's Gordy Gillespie, uh, a guy who was in 18 halls of fame. He walks over and the kids are behind him, so he's got back to the kids and he's facing the graves and court. He goes, Hey fella. To the graves. Hey fellas, make room for Gordy. These guys are killing me. so, so it broke the rhythm, you know, of, of the practice and "I. So "I, think "I. Think humor's a big one. "I already mentioned Team ego, "I. Think that's what you wanna build in your team. how about. we sure reached that in sport and "I heard a coach who was working in Salt Lake City say this, you might like this one. Luke, your FQ is more important than your iq and your FQ is your failure. Quotion. How often can you fail and have the resiliency to get back up? How did Lombardi say it? Glory in sport is not in never falling. It's in getting up after the fall. And Pat Riley "I like this one, success is getting up one more time than you're knocked down cuz you're gonna be knocked down. so those are, those are some of the characteristics that we talk about you know, in the book. And you know what it is? Look, it's nothing but common sense. Just common sense. And "I always like that FQ thing because you're gonna fail. You're gonna fail. "I. "I. In your personal life, in your professional life, you're gonna meet failure. Okay? How about this one? Now you got success and you kind of better watch out there too, because if. Too arrogant, too cocky. Think you got it all figured out, you're in trouble. And we went out to play the University of San Francisco in our locker room. They had 21 pictures of former players from San Francisco who played in the nba. And here's what "I think happened. It has to do with success. That success is never owned. It's only rent. And the rent is due every day. And "I think that's exactly why we happened to beat 'em that night that they thought against the school they never heard of. And a smaller school, they had automatic success, but they forgot we were a pretty good team that year, and they forgot that the rent was due every.

Luke:

So good coach. So many things to touch upon there. The humor thing, the story of Coach Gille, uh, man "I mean, there's just a lot to unpack with that answer right there. Failure, "I mean, and "I, don't wanna get on my soapbox right now, but "I feel like that is a skill set that is being lost in young athletes today. You know, parents are trying to build these elite teams and make sure their kids are on the number one AAU team in the country. Because they don't want their kids to fail and just they're trying to skip an important part of the stairs to get to success. And you talk to any of the most successful people regardless of business or regardless of profession. Failure is the impetus to success and how many of us are trying to skip that step. And it frustrates me and we try to avoid failure cuz we don't like to see how it makes our kids feel. And then we wonder why these kids don't have grit. And the more "I coach, the more "I realized that grit is arguably the most important thing for me to teach. "I used to focus on. And effort and being willing to do things that others aren't willing to do. And yeah, "I think all those things are important, but it's really starting to evolve into this idea of grit and we're, we're completely losing it. Then the idea of success. Nick Saban does a great job of talking about this, like it's harder to stay on top than it is to get there, so,

Pat:

Oh

Luke:

"I mean think about Alabama is eight and two right now and they're two or three plays away from being 10. And oh, everyone's talking about the demise of Alabama. Like how absurd is that? And Alabama faithful calling for Nick Saban's job cuz he lost two games by couple of plays. Like it's just complete insanity. So yeah, "I mean so many things. That was such a great answer and that'll have to be our next episode when we get back. For episode two of this, but "I wanna transition to public speaking cuz that's something else that you do. And that too is a skill set that is lost upon this generation and people are so afraid to get up and talk in front of a group. Yet you've been doing it for 30 years, delivering motivational messages to companies as large as IBM and Nike. So how did you launch that part of your.

Pat:

Well, part of it was. When my son was with, ibm, he started his career with ibm and this was really interesting. The, some of the top administrators in IBM were called Coach I. Didn't know that,

Luke:

"I didn't know that either.

Pat:

"I had no idea. So Pat asked me a few times to, go to Boston to go to San Francisco to. Different parts of the country and talk about attitude. so that kinda kicked it off you know, almost any audience if you think about it, you can talk about attitude. I've talked about it with religious places. I've talked about it to big business. So that was the start of it, the impetus of it. Then "I wrote the book, and then "I hoped that, you know, the message might be well received. so that's how "I began.

Luke:

Let's talk about the attitude piece that you speak on. What do your clients want you to really hit when it comes to attitude?

Pat:

I. Don't think there's any one thing except that "I Hope. "I made him think, you know, "I, "I, "I, "I don't care who's speaking. But if the speaker makes us think, then "I think the speech may very well have merit. So the main thing "I want them to take away is how important. Their attitude is, and when you use the acronym, there's eight characteristics and "I think among the ones that people might like, are intelligence and "I and "I believe this, that the A C T and the S A T and the L S A T, all those exams, Luke "I "I, know the kids. Perform well on 'em to get into certain schools and to get scholarships at certain schools. But "I never believed in those exams because they can't measure what's in your heart, you know? And I've spoken with him and he's, he's a very good friend, his entire family, uh, Rudy from the movie, And. How about he, he'll begin his, his talks by saying, "I graduated third in my high school class. Third from the bottom, you know?

Luke:

"I didn't think you were going there.

Pat:

Yeah. And then he says, "I "I never, "I never knew this until Rudy said it. He said, you know, from first grade to my senior year in high school, teachers told me I was too dumb to. And, uh, then when he got to Holy Cross Community College, "I can still remember making the call for him because that, it's a four year school now, but it's across the street from Notre Dame, Luke, and it was a junior college then. So Rudy got in, they had proper diagnostic testing that he never had in the schools that he, he grew. And he said the best day of his life was when he finished a test and they told him the next day that he had dyslexia. So now he knew all those teachers who told him he was too dumb to learn. Were nuts, And now there was a reason why learning came so difficultly. and "I love his message to young kids. don't let anybody tell you you're dumb and don't give up. It's, it's a great lesson.

Luke:

Yeah, definitely powerful stuff. And we can't let these external labels hold us back because especially in today's world, boy do we love to pigeonhole someone into a corner and it definitely holds people back there. There's no doubt and very powerful stuff there. Coach and man, this has been just an awesome 40 minutes. It, it feels like it's been five. Indication to me that it's been just a really, a really powerful conversation. And there's a lot more things "I love to talk to you about, but we gotta get, get down with our day and get ready for, uh, for Turkey Day. So thank you so much for joining us. "I. "I did want to wrap up this conversation, going back to the reading portion because again, "I want to motivate people to continue to learn. And yeah, "I, "I, you know, "I think it's great to watch. Videos and all that stuff is great too, but "I just do not think you could substitute holding a physical book in your hand and even better a highlighter or a pen to make notes, right? Actively reading to me is one of the most powerful things we can do in self-improvement. So what would be a book or two that are just your all time favorite? Besides the ones you wrote yourself, of course, that you would recommend to our listeners to go out and get a copy of today.

Pat:

"I liked the old man in the sea. "I thought Hemingway, that that was a beautiful book. There's a, a book on. Ireland called Trinity and "I. I've been to Ireland, I've worked there. but "I probably learned more about the background of Ireland from that book. It's a great book. Um, anything Mitchner wrote, "I read, he just had some great insights. Into life. Um, I? Just read one that was, uh, about Joy and it was the Dalai Lama and Bishop Tutu, and the whole book is on finding Joy and spreading joy. Great book. I could go on and on. You know, "I, "I

Luke:

No tho those are, those are great suggestions and "I love talking to fellow readers and getting suggest. "I know my to-do list of books "I wanna read. it just continues to grow. "I could never catch up with it, but "I love it. And "I love the fact that threw out old man in the sea. "I mean you want "I mean. You really threw me for a curve ball there. "I, "I, "I. Thought for sure you're gonna just kind of drop the cannon of coaches of, oh, read this Lou Holtz book, or this great thing about Coach K or Coach Wooden.

Pat:

Yeah.

Luke:

had me at Old Man right there. Right. So you definitely touch into my, my English soul there. But yeah, it's great to get out, read fiction, read nonfiction, and again, just explore these other opportunities to read. So great suggestions. And you know, we're laughing about the struggles of technology today. We did have a lot leading into this recording. "I do know you have a website, coach pat sullivan.com, which I'll link that in the show notes as well. and then talk about the Book of Ireland. When people go to your website, they'll see the Shamrock, then they'll understand your love of Ireland right there as well. But, uh, if there's any, is there any other social media, "I? Dunno if you're on Facebook or Twitter's a great thing for coaches or your email address that you wanna share. If people wanna reach out to you to talk more about your public speaking or just overall coaching pH.

Pat:

Sure. My email is P as in pat, sully, s u comcast.net. And the uh, website is coach pat sullivan.com. and you know, one last thing, "I reading. Luke "I have five children, 13 grandchildren and "I "I used to tell my children when they were growing up. Reading is so important cuz it takes you all over the world

Luke:

mic drop right there. Couldn't agree more with you. And maybe, uh, you could come talk to my kids because despite the fact, me being a passionate reader and an English teacher, "I have high school aged kids that "I have to struggle with getting on the read. But love it. Thank you again for being so generous with your time fighting through the struggles of technology today and, uh, you've made me a better coach today. And "I have no doubt you made our listeners better coaches and teachers as well. So it was great meeting you and "I. Look forward to hopefully maybe our path. Lastly, cross in person at some point. So

Pat:

Thank you for having me. "I thoroughly enjoyed this great questions.