Creating a Program Identity Based on P+E+T

Luke: 0:00

This is episode 13 of the "I" in Win.

Jimmy: 0:03

We wanted to have something that was. It could be something tangible if you will, that, that we could grab onto that. The players in our, and ultimately our community could grab onto and we could build our identity around

Luke: 0:28

Welcome to the "I" in Win and welcome to our guest who's taking time during an off period. So we got to get going right into the interview and we have our own head basketball coach at Jacobs high school coach Jimmy Roberts. Thanks for being on coach.

Jimmy: 0:39

thanks for having me. I really appreciate it.

Luke: 0:42

Want to get into the influence of your dad? You know, he's a hall of fame, high school football coach, growing up, watching your dad, all the kids that he impacted throughout his. How did that influence you to become a coach? Who's going to focus on developing people.

Jimmy: 0:57

Yeah. I mean, obviously that's kind of the number one impact. You know, from as far back as I can remember, that's what I grew up in. That's what I knew. That's the life that I knew. That's the life our family knew. I mean, you know, the highlights of my childhood are, you know, that this was back when you know, schools didn't really have lights in Buffalo Grove. One of the last to get lights. They like sticking to that Saturday afternoon tradition. My favorite memories as a kid were going to those Saturday afternoon games. And then, you know, each coach there was like a rotating party, every Saturday and going to those parties on Saturdays after the game and playing with the coaches, kids, and it just, it was our lives, that's what we grew up in. Um, and then, as I got older, I think, I think because my dad was a coach, I was always pretty realistic. I think with my abilities. I mean, I was a pretty good player in high school. I was able to go to college for free because of it. And, but, but, you know, I, I knew it. I didn't have these kinds of pipe dreams of being a professional basketball player. I was pretty realistic about those things. So I always knew I wanted to get into teaching and coaching and it's because of that and those experiences. so I always knew that's what I wanted to do. You know, my dad was obviously the biggest influence. You know, there were some, some of his best friends and other guys, I got to witness, you know, coach grant Blaney who, who my dad coached for, um, a legendary Illinois high school football coach. Um, he's like a, he was like a second father to my dad. So just being able to be around him, coach Tom, Deneen one of the best basketball coaches in the state of Illinois, and, you know, coach Wendell baseball coach, just, you know, countless people that I was fortunate enough to grow up and be around. And, just by being there and going through that, you know, you pick up some things and learn things and see things along the way. And, you know, at the time going through it, I, I wasn't really conscious of it, but it's the relationships. Some of my dad's players became like family to us and, they were guys that I looked up to and, you know, I worshiped some of these guys and, uh, seeing the players come back and come in and see my dad and seeing how powerful and strong these connections and, you know, that was really powerful, influential stuff for me growing up. So, all of those things really pushed me into this and, wanting to kind of do that now on my own. That's really the neat part.

Luke: 3:26

The amount of hours is tremendous to be a successful high school head coach, regardless of the sport. I'm sure it helped that at least your seasons didn't overlap. Was he still able to come and watch a lot of your games in high school?

Jimmy: 3:39

He was, you know, so, when I was very young, my dad was the head basketball coach at Buffalo Grove. So when they won the state championship in 86, he was the defensive coordinator for the football team. And he was the head basketball coach. I want to say from like 84 to nine. Somewhere in there. Um, so then when grant stepped down as the head football coach, my dad got the head football job, I think in 1990. So obviously he stepped down from basketball and I was crushed. I was a basketball kid from a young age, you know, that, that was my sport. And I wrote a story about it. And like my fourth grade class about how devastated I was that my dad, wasn't going to be the head basketball coach. He, he said it at that time when I was just a little kid that this would open up the opportunity for him to see me play. Um, so he actually started the junior bears basketball program, like the feeder program for lake Zurich. When my group was in sixth grade, so he coached our feeder basketball team. You know, in that respect It was a pretty genius move by him that, um, you know, I'm really grateful for. And I recognize now, but at the time I wasn't real happy about it. I wanted him to be the head basketball coach.

Luke: 4:53

That's a really tough balance for coaches who have kids. And I know you have kids yourself. That's a really tough balance to put in. Hours. It takes to have an elite program and to sustain that con that competitive drive that you have, but then you, you have kids at home and their athletes do and trying to balance all that. So that's, that's an interesting dynamic and I was glad your dad was able to be a part of that. And in addition to your dad, and I know you referenced some other coaches as well, but in addition to your dad, who else has helped shape you along the way and influenced you to becoming the head coach, you are now.

Jimmy: 5:27

You know, in high school, I, you know, everybody along the way is influential. I just, I just feel like in high school, sometimes we're kinda, I guess naive is a nice way of putting it where as a high school kid, I don't know how much I really took from my high school coaches that that really influenced me today. And that's nothing against them by any means. You know, I worked, I was fortunate to be coached by some great people, but you know, really college and beyond is what I think really has shaped me, you know, at the college level we played at a high level. We went to conference championships, we went to two national tournaments. Um, you know, the attention to detail the accountability. Really the preparation that we put in and that level, as far as our film study and our preparation, I think that's what that's, what we were best at in college was our preparation and that's what made us really, really good. So I started my career as a high school coach, and I think in my mind, I was probably thinking, Okay. now I'm going to need to, you know, coaches are more like my high school experience. Well, my first teaching job in coaching job out of college was that light in and I worked for a man named Ken Davis. Um, he knew me from my playing days at lake Zurich, knew of my dad. So that helped me get that opportunity. And Kenny was a demanding dude, man, he was passionate. He was, you was, you was a little off the wall at some, at times with his passion and his firing us for things. But he held kids accountable and he was demanding and he put in a ton of time. And as far as, being able to observe and work for, and with somebody who was starting a program. I think that was a huge thing for me as a young coach to be a part of that. Um, I was fortunate on that staff as well to also work with Tom Livatino. Who's now the head coach at Loyola academy, and one of my best, very best friends. And he's been another, you know, a huge influence on me, Tom, he's known around the state is one of the best, one of the best coaches we have in the state of Illinois. You talk about preparation, attention to detail, um, guarding tough. Pushing kids demand being demanding of kids, but all along the way, having just tremendous relationships with kids, so, you know, I think those two guys in particular, just because I was a really young coach, getting in the education game, so to speak, I was 22 years old when I started there and, um, those two, I think, have really shaped who I am today as a coach.

Luke: 7:59

All right. So let's get into the present and talk about your program, which you've had a lot of success. And, you know, we've had some notoriety recently named one of the, one of the top programs in the state of Illinois, which is a great basketball state. So congratulations to that, but I want to talk about your program philosophies. And I want to start with the mission statement and I'm just paraphrasing part of it right here. And it's the idea to motivate student athletes, to compete and perform at a level that they would not otherwise reach in all aspects of their life. And I love it and I agree wholeheartedly with it, but those are words on paper. So let's talk to actionable steps and that's how we could help our listeners right now. So what are some actionable steps that you do? In the classroom and this could be as a teacher, or it could be as a coach with your players, but what are some actionable steps you do in the classroom to motivate and encourage achievement in the classroom?

Jimmy: 8:52

You know, like, like most things in education and coaching, there's things we borrow and we take and we make our own. And, I actually pulled this kind of template, from some of my dad's old notes from a Northwestern clinic, he was at, I think this is some Randy Walker stuff. Um, but, but you know, we take and we make our own and mold it so that it works for us in our program. So I love your question because. It makes a great point. As far as I think so many, so many programs, so many companies, they have statements like this and they have words on paper. Right. And that's what they are. They just become words on paper and it's like, well, this is something we should have. But is it just something on paper that we were asked to do and it's good to have and good to show other people? Or is it something that has meaning, so, um, I hope this is getting to your, to the answer, to the question that you asked. I

Luke: 9:45

Yeah. And I know it's a, it's a tough question. I don't mean to put you on a spot coach. I'm just trying to, you know, it's a, it's a tough thing. And I was an English teacher and kids. I have 40 kids, 30 kids, whatever it was sitting in front of me. And, 99% of them didn't want to be there. And here we are trying to motivate them to achieve and almost convinced them that this is important in your life. And then you also have your players who. You know, reality is which we're going to talk about this a little bit later. Some of them do prefer basketball over the classroom and see basketball as their priority over academics. And it's our job as coaches, again, the lifelong skills to impart upon these kids, that at the end of the day, we're going to have our education. And that's a really important piece of the puzzle. So that's kinda what I was getting at with.

Jimmy: 10:35

Right. So so at the end of the day, you know, with all that being said, what it kinda came down to for us as we were building our programs specifically here at Jacobs was. You know, we have to care and our kids have to know that we care. So if we want to be able to, provide these experience for these kids and, push them to levels that they didn't know, they could even get to, we needed to first develop these relationships with them. And how do you do that is we have to, we have to care and our players, and like you said, it translates into the classroom. Um, you know, and then I've had people ask, well, I get it. Well, how do you show them that you care? Um, and that's a hard question for me to answer as well. I mean,

Luke: 11:20

Yeah, that is a tough one. And I know it's something we all all agree with and, you know, like with the classroom piece, sometimes it's just, I have found just a simple check-in let's use athletics as an example, before practice, you check in with the kid and say, Hey, I heard you did really well on that English test. Great job. Right. I mean, I think you would agree with me like that, that little 10 seconds of involvement in that kid's life in the classroom changes the athlete.

Jimmy: 11:46

No question about it.

Luke: 11:47

Yeah, it's just those little interactions that I think so many coaches miss out on those opportunities to reinforce the idea of student athlete, because. Too many times, we talked too much about what we need from them at the, at that practice moment, you know what, okay. We need to have a good practice today. And man, we're playing a great opponent this weekend. We just forget to check in with them that, an hour ago they had one of the toughest math test they had all year and they've been anxious about it for the past four days. So, but yeah, it's, it's tough. Right? It's um, we're talking about. Aren't necessarily tangible and I'm trying my best to make intangibles so people could walk away with a few nuggets that say, Hey, this is what I can do to be a better coach and a better teacher. Um,

Jimmy: 12:29

yeah. there's no question that goes into that caring piece, right. You know, that that's showing that you care and it could be something as little as kids are going through some dynamic warmup and practice, you walk up to maybe, maybe it's intentional in the fact that it's a kid you really got on yesterday and practice, and then you kind of walk up to them as they're going through a dynamic warmup and say, Hey, man, I saw you walking down the hallway with, uh, who is that girl you were walking with? You know, and just engage in a little conversation like that to bring some humanity to it, if you will, and, and break away from that coach player, cliche type of, you know, dynamic that I think you're right. That's so many fall into and bring some human aspect to it, that, and, and bring like that balance.

Luke: 13:13

No doubt. We have to keep in mind what they need as opposed to what we need from them. Because as a coach, sometimes we're we're so stuck on what we need from them, which is again, that great practice, you know, we need just that uncommon effort and we forget that. There's other things going on in their life, which brings me to, the next point and that's life skills. And I know one that you have stressed as leadership. So, I'm curious as to what you do to help develop leaderships within your players. Cause I do think that is a very important life skill.

Jimmy: 13:44

Absolutely. And that that's, that's, that's so hard. Um, we've all had, you know, you've had a ton of teams and you've had, I'm sure some great leaders and it seems like it's just innate to a lot of them. Right. They just have these, these leadership skills, these characteristics, that they seem to, they just. Um, and those are obviously some really, really special ones to be around. Um, but I think leadership it comes in so many different ways and shapes and forms, right? Like we have our vocal leaders, and sometimes your vocal leaders are your best players. I think that's a pretty ideal situation, but sometimes you have your kids who are really vocal. It could be a bench guy. It's not necessarily seral, you're your best player. So you have your really vocal guys. And I think a lot of times those are maybe outsiders target, oh, that's gotta be your leader. I think the kids might see that person as your leader, you know? Right. But we talk a lot about leadership and our program is, as leaders are the ones that others follow and hopefully in the right manner. Um, so we talk a lot about things like that in the sense that we want to have all different types of leaders. We need different types of leaders. We got to have the vocal. Um, we gotta have maybe the quiet guy who just buses, but is the competitor. And he leads us in that manner. We gotta have maybe the one who leads in school in the hallways. Maybe he's a school spirit guy. He's a member of that team for us. Um, so we, we talk about and work on. Leading in a variety of ways, we try to encourage our players to find a way to be a leader. Something we talk a lot about on a daily basis is make somebody else better. Um, you know, after a workout or our kids in the weight room on Tuesday, I'll just ask, who did you make better today? Did you make somebody else better today or worse, or were you just worried about yourself? And if every one of those kids that we talked to, if every one of our players is making an effort to make somebody else better in some way, well, they're conducting themselves as a leader. So we kind of try to find different ways to be a leader of the different forms of leadership. Um, I try to find non-sports related things to bring in. So, you know, along the years, we've pulled a bunch of quotes from like some military things. I read a book called the Trident in 2016, 17, and it was about an RV range who got kicked out of Navy seals. So we, we studied and looked At. I pulled a bunch of quotes and that kind of guided us through our 2016, 17 season where we went, we went to the super sectional. Um, one year we got really focused on climbing Mount Everest, and what goes into that? And one of the messages from, from there was the bigger, your goal, the bigger the team you need. So, um, we're trying to find and identify who our leaders in our program are going to be. And then ways we can kind of build that and help them along with that process.

Luke: 16:53

And let's move on to your program values and that's the P plus the E plus the T. So first start with what are those values?

Jimmy: 17:01

So the P.E.T stands for passion, enthusiasm And toughness.

Luke: 17:05

And why'd you pick those three to be the foundational values of your program.

Jimmy: 17:10

So after our first year here at Jacobs, which was nine years ago, we had a good group. We had a rather young group. Um, so we had a lot of good kids coming back and we thought we had a chance to be really, really good the next year. And the next few years, uh, we thought we had a good stretch in front of us. So we had a coaches meeting at the end of the season to try to sketch out our spring and our summer and beyond. And I was passed along an article from a guy that I coached with. And he was actually the head coach at Lincoln park high school at the time and he was a good friend of mine. So he's a big OSU fan and you pass along an article and it had to do with that. It had to do with when when urban Meyer went there and you know, it was taking over the program. And after a couple years they had a lot of success. I think they lost two games in two years, but something was missing and they needed something to get over the hump. And they focused in on E plus R equals O I think that's what it was. If you're familiar with hearing that

Luke: 18:07

Yup. Yup. Yup.

Jimmy: 18:08

So we had a discussion, you know, we wanted to create something tangible, something that we could grab onto. We had conversations like, okay, we're starting a program here, and we're trying to build this thing. If you, into a freshman basketball player in our program and said, you're a part of the Jacob's basketball program. What's your program. What's your identity? What, what, what is your program value? And we say, you know, that kid would have no idea, not that our freshmen coaches are, or any coaches were doing a poor job. We had a tremendous staff. Um, but we wanted to have something that was. It could be something tangible if you will, that, that we could grab onto that. The players in our, and ultimately our community could grab onto and we could build our identity around. And, I just locked in on, you know, toughness is what we value you. We want to be enthusiastic, you know, passionate and. We're kind of putting these things in order and eventually came to P.E.T. So. at first it was P E T equals us, you know that's what we're about. So then of course, for a couple of years, everybody said, pet us, what's pet us mean what, what does that mean? Um, so that's where it began. That's where it started. Kind of the birth or the beginning of it. And then from there it's, I guess it's grown and it's, and it's evolved and, um, it's really become what our program is all about.

Luke: 19:35

And let's talk about the P.E.T wall. And I know you mentioned, you got that idea from Loyola, and let's talk a little bit about that wall and how that gets worked into your program. And it's culture.

Jimmy: 19:46

sure. So. You know, and, and, and moving to, you know, trying to further. Kind of define, what our program is and what our program is about. So, you know, after we were here for 2, 3, 4 years, and, we, we were able to have some success and we had some, some, some great human beings in our program, let alone great players. You know, we, we, we just wanted to keep building this thing and, and, you know, the challenge was. How do we keep this thing going? Right. That's all of our challenges you had these great players, just these great program guys. And then they leave, how do we keep and grow what they've done? How, how do we build upon this? How do we, how do we keep a connection to these players that are now coming through our program? How do we keep this thing going? And, uh, After after being at Loyola and talking with coach Moser and seeing what, what they were kind of putting together. I just, I opened up a group text with a lot of our former players and I, I posed in the tax, you know, you know, send me back. Uh, what are, what are some sayings? What are some things you remember? What are our program principles? What are our core values? What are, what are statements, things that things that, you know, myself and coach Denny things that we always say. And, you know, you can imagine that that's a lot of fun. When you, you got a bunch of your former players in a conversation like that. There's a lot of things that we couldn't put on the pet wall, um, that are said, but what we ended up gathering was. Our programs, language, right? Our programs, identity, you know, protect the culture, embrace the responsibility, bear the burden, um, championship culture set, and embrace high standards. Um, you know, if you want to be like everybody else do what everybody else does. If you want to be like us, do what we do. Um, you know, some of our programs, sayings, if you will, and then, you know, terminology, tag and trail, uh, I used the ball screen, read the ball screen bump cutters 45 J um, it's our language. And. And now we'll what we do. What we do is we move along over the years and this really happens at our lower levels is our lower level coaches. We try to have them every day in practice. They'll pull something from the pet wall to talk about with our players, you know, see if they know what this terminology means. If not, they explain it in our youth camps with our fifth, sixth, seventh graders. Our players, coach those camps in the summer and we'll have a pet wall topic of the day. And one of the players will, you know, they'll say Spartan hand and they'll talk about the Spartan hand and describe it and explain it and how we teach it. So, um, you know, we're, we're trying to build these things and get these things ingrained in our kids at a young age as they're coming, coming up and through. So. You know, on our pet wall, we also have our, we call them our pet ambassadors, guys that go on and played at the next level. We have all of our accomplishments and pictures of every championship team that we've had. Um, so I think it's a wall that we definitely believe, you know, really characterizes our program and what our program's all about.

Luke: 23:02

I really liked that idea of having your freshman coaches and even at youth camp basically exposing them to the wall and helping them to understand, because that guarantees alignment throughout the program. So that's definitely a great idea for coaches to Institute because sometimes, and it's through no fault of anyone lower-level programs and varsity programs are on different pages. And sometimes it's tough to get everybody on the same page, just because of lack of time and being in the same place at the same time. I know, you know, in wrapping up this. One thing that's really important within your program. And you've touched upon at the very front end and that is relationships. And I know you have great relationships with all your players and there's one that's been pretty well-documented because it's on your social media, it's on news stations and the newspapers and, and ask with Cameron Krutwig. And I was, I was wondering, I mean, it looks like he's pretty much an extension of your family. I mean, you see your family there and he's right there. Like. Christmas photo for you. How did it get to the point that he pretty much became an extension of your family?

Jimmy: 24:00

Yeah. You know, Cam's a special, special dude and I know cam. I guess it's weird for me to say it's more it's I guess it's the most public relationship, right? Because of all the success and kind of, I guess you could say the fame that he's had, but man, we've been fortunate to have a number of camps and I could list off a bunch of guys that are just really special dudes that I'm really, really close with to this day. But, you know, I, you know, some of these other guys might get mad at me for saying this, but, you know, I think I've definitely have the closest relationship with cam. I mean, It's not only a former player, he's honestly one of my best friends to this day, you know, right now. Um, I don't think there's anybody else I talked to more than him and we talk every day. We, we, we talk on the phone probably a couple of times a week right now. um, how it started, I think know. We both started at an opportune time. When I came into Jacobs, he was coming into Jacobs as a freshman. Um, Some tremendous timing how fortunate I was. Huh. And, uh, and you know, I remember day one when I met him and just from the get-go, I can't explain it. We just had a, a, a special relationship. Um, Like I said, though, there were some really special relationships with a lot of those guys. I think, you know, anything like that, it goes back to show the kids that you care, um, being present. I think being present is a huge thing and that's something that I've always, I've always really tried to do as a head coach is number one, be present. I just feel like you gotta be there and you gotta be around. And it sounds really simple, but. You know, every weightlifting session, you know, I lift and I work out with the guys I'm in the trenches with them, not so much these days. Some things have changed a little bit, but, um, being present and being there that, that step one to, to any relationship, right? Think about our relationship with our families and our kids. I mean, you know, we can say all these great things, but if you're not there, if you're not present, if you're not living all of these things that you're teaching, you know, it's pretty hollow in kids can see through that. So, you know, being together with cam for four years, um, he had a special, special group of kids, his age, um, the special things we were able to accomplish. It was a time in my life where. I wasn't married. Um, you know, I was single, I had a lot of time to put in this. I could spend as much time at school as I needed to. Um, you talk about being present, you know, I could be as, as present as I needed to be. Um, so I think, you know, just the ability to spend a lot of time together with him in those groups. Um, you know, facilitated those relationships. And then, um, you know, I think our preparation and how we ran our program, you know, Kansas, a smart guy, Cam's got a brother who played at a high level and went through our program. You know, kids aren't dummies. They, you know, they can tell if you're, if you're a fraud, if you're faking it, they know if we're working harder, if we're cutting corners. And, um, I think from, from the get go, he respected, you know, what we were as coaches and where our program was heading. I think the relationship just continued to build from there.

Luke: 27:20

Yeah. And I think the fact that you remained friends and, you know, such a, a tight relationship speaks volumes. The impact you had on him as a coach and that he values you as this mentor. And that's really what I think we all want to achieve in some. I don't really know how, and that's why I want to talk to guys like you. And sometimes it's simple as just being present, right. Sometimes just being there and being involved in the kid's life. But I know we're running short on time. I know you've got to get back to teaching here soon. So, uh, you do like to read what are some recommended sources you could give to our listeners you know, books on leadership or, you know, developing people that you can recommend.

Jimmy: 27:58

Sure. I'm, uh, I, you know, I saw some of the things, you know, before we were coming into this conversation and it made me reflect on man, I need to get back at it and, you know, growing myself, cause I really enjoy reading and I've let her. So much over the years, early on in my career. And I think you can probably relate, um, with young children, things get a little, it gets a little difficult to find those times to really better yourself. Um, you know, over the years, I, I like, I like reading things outside of, I kind of mentioned it earlier. You know, th this, this book called Trident about an army ranger who he, he got kind of thrown out and he had to fight his way back. I really love the messages in that. Um, I read lone survivor a ways back. I just loved the messages and the stories from there. And I love bringing those in, into our kids. Um, you know, football, bringing, bringing those different things into, into our sport. Um, I read a book on Belicheck a little ways back. Um, I'm a little out of practice of late, but, I do enjoy, I do enjoy reading it and bettering myself.

Luke: 29:11

Yeah, those are some great suggestions. And there's no doubt that kids are game changers for coaches, and it's a little harder to be present. And it's a little bit harder to be reading books and I'm with you on that, man. And that's where audio books come into play because sometimes driving to work is the only time you have for that professional development that you have to kind of retrain your mind. Cause I'm an old school guy. I like a book. I like a highlight. You know, I'm like in the 1950s and everything I read, I try to learn from, and it's just hard to have those moments of engagement, uh, with, with kids now. But,

Jimmy: 29:41

it is. And I've tried to grab some podcasts, but I'm like, you. If I'm going to read those things, I want to have a purpose. And I've when I was going through that, try to end book, I read with the computer and I kept building out this document that I shared with our players. And I agree. I need to have, you know, I kinda gotta have that there. Cause cause I wanna take so much out of it and listening to them and podcasts, I find myself pausing and doing notes on my phone and I'm with you. I hear you.

Luke: 30:11

Yeah, you got it. You got to change the way we learn. There's no doubt about it. Uh, what about your contact info with someone wants to reach out and talk to you a little bit more about pet or things that you're doing within your program.

Jimmy: 30:21

sure. I always welcome those conversations. Um, my email address is James dot B as in boy.Roberts@dthreehundred.org. Yeah, I'd welcome. Anybody to email. Love to have a conversation anytime.

Luke: 30:39

And any social media handles.

Jimmy: 30:41

Sure at JHS hoops is my Twitter handle. If anybody would want to reach out welcome, any conversation makes me better, more than anything to have these conversations, just talking to you. It makes, always makes me, you know, reflect on things

Luke: 30:57

well, I, I appreciate your time. And like I said, I know you're in between classes and I also want to let our listeners know that you have graciously allowed me to share a lot of your programs, documents, including the P.E.T wall and your mission statements. So. That will be located in the show notes as well. And, you know, you're a wealth of knowledge and I, I appreciate you for allowing me to put you on a spot. I know I asked them some tough questions that you didn't have time to really think about ahead of time. So thanks for allowing me to do that. And thanks for spending this time on your off period with us.

Jimmy: 31:26

Of course. Thanks Luke.

Luke: 31:28

Thanks for listening to another episode of the"I"in Win. As I mentioned, all of coach Robert's program documents are listed in show notes, take a look at those, a lot of great things. You'll be able to apply into your own programs. If you want to reach out to me, go to our website theiinwin.com or I'm on Twitter @LukeMertens. And as always remember, the more eyes we impact in this world, the more everyone. That's the