Finding the Right Fit as a Leader w/Mark Ribbens

Mark: 0:00

You have to, pull the curtain and say, this is what we're gonna do. Like "I, we're gonna coach your kids super hard, but we're gonna love him super hard, but it's not always gonna be great.

Luke: 0:21

If you spent any time inside of a high school, then you know, the athletic director is one of the most important roles, working mainly behind the scenes, ensuring athletes have a first class experience. It can be a thankless job at times requiring exhausting hours, but thankfully we have people who continue to answer the call. Proud to introduce today's guest, Mark Ribbens, athletic director at Wauconda High School in Illinois since 2017. And Mark and "I go way back to 2004. When he served as assistant coach of my staff when we started up Lakes Community High School, which is also in Illinois. Mark, thanks for joining us on this cold blustery day. One part of being an athletic director that we did not plan to talk about are these weather types of days, and you have to cancel games. It's a beautiful 30 degrees below zero with the wind chills in Chicago land area. So that is always a, a frustrating thing with athletic directors and "I definitely don't have you guys especially. In the springtime with all of the rain outs, with baseball and everything else. But hey, that's the profession that you chose. And all of us in this profession, ideally we chose this because we want to make impacts on people's lives. That's a really important reason and motivation behind why we decide to step into a classroom or on an athletic field in the first place. So let's talk about your role as athletic director. Are you still able to make a positive impact on kids' lives? And if so, how do you go about doing that?

Mark: 1:52

So a couple, couple of ways,, how "I can positively impact student athletes. And it's not going to be the, if you think about the impact, it could be negative because there is. Portions of the time "I, which "I don't love about my job, where "I have to divvy out consequences when student athletes make poor decisions and coaches that make poor decisions. that's a given with the job. You just have to, you have to do that. But the positive impact is we provide an educational based extracurricular program that focuses on educating the entire child, the whole child, not just sports. and that'll give that student athlete many different tools to use to. Post-secondary life. You've got to focus on educating the whole child. We are not a profit-based, professional or, college type sport environment. We. In education based athletics. So, parts of the attributes that we look for are student athletes to build meaningful relationships with their peers and their coaches through sport. Um, they wanna have the ability to trust others and accomplish tasks that will benefit the entire team. Uh, going along with that, they all also are a part of a program that's just bigger than themselves. It's not just an individual based program, it's being a part of a team. They're gonna learn tools such as time management, problem solving skills and conflict resolution through playing sport. and then learn how to become a servant leader and be unselfish. And those are all, those are all attributes that we ask our head coaches. to focus on when we're, we're discussing education based athletics. Notice none of those attributes are we have to win every single contest. That's not even, it's not even a part of the conversation. that's nowhere in my head, coach's evaluation and our assistant coach evaluation. There's nowhere where there's a portion, portion to evaluate, you know, successful campaign, this and that. There's. So that's not even a part of the conversation. There's goals that each program comes up with a pre-season and a mid-season meeting that we come back to in the post-season. But those are goals that are driven and built by the, the coaches and the kids. They're not my, they're not my goals, cuz if "I have a goal, and if "I come out and have a goal and there's no investment, there's no skin in the game for the coaches, they're gonna be like, well, this is Ribbon's goal "I. Okay, we just gotta do it. Now there's certain district initiatives that, that we always have to do, but those are, those are never performance based. Those are always like, Processes, policies, procedures, that's, that's the only like top down that "I "I come with. And there's some top down decisions that come from my office and that come from district to come to my office, but it's not. performance based. And that's the important part of education based athletics. Winning and losing is never part of, and the unwritten goal is everyone wants to win and lose or everyone wants to win. Okay, we get that. But what are all the other steps that you're doing to get kids to that point? You know, good relationships, having a positive culture. The winning and losing will take care of itself.

Luke: 4:55

That was a, a, really good, thorough explanation of almost like your purpose, your vision statements as an athletic director and "I "I, wholeheartedly agree with the things that you laid out in that answer. But the reality is there are some serious challenges facing athletics today, in particular high school athletics. So from your vantage point, what are some of those big challenges facing high school athletics?

Mark: 5:20

Well, uh, specialization is an issue. Um, I "I went to the national, athletic director conference in Nashville a couple weeks ago, and "I heard the term from athletic directors from across the nation. It's not helicopter parents anymore. They're called bulldozer parents. They, they absolutely destroy any conflict and any issue in their student athletes lives or kids' lives to. What they think easier for their kids, which we can get into that in the long term. It's incredibly damaging. Um, AAU club pressure, that puts on kids that sort pay, pay to play, that's difficult. And then, N "I, l as of right now, Illinois has, has passed a bylaw to look in the "I. S a has passed a bylaw to look into N "I L and how it's going to affect, student athletes. So, uh, "I know the, the kind of, the minimum rule right now is any student athlete in Illinois cannot be in their jersey if they're been paid by like a car dealership to, you know, whatever. You have an Allstate kid, they can't wear like a Wakanda High School or St. Pat's jersey. they can just be in like, whatever, you know, just like a shirt and they get, paid, to promote like a car dealership. But that's gonna be, you know, that's completely blown up in regards to like, especially like college football and college basketball. That's just like, it's just beyond the transfer portal and all just that, that's a whole deal. But that's leaked down into high school.

Luke: 6:45

Let's start with that multi-sport athlete one, and "I put out a quote from the head coach of East Carolina's baseball team, Coach Cliff Godwin and he said, if "I were deciding between two recruits, one plays multiple sports, the other baseball only, I'd go with a multi-sport athlete all day. Even if he's a step behind in. Multi-sport athletes know how to compete in different ways. And "I put that quote out on Twitter and it's got a lot of traction because it's a hot topic to discuss right now it's just interesting to me. You have these coaches at a high level. Putting stuff like this out there in the media, there's plenty of science to back up the overuse, the burnout that's going on in phase athletes. But despite all of that, in my opinion, we seem to be trending in the opposite direction, and specialization is becoming more and more than norm. And based off what you said in your previous answer, you've seen the same. So with that said, Why are athletics trending in the opposite direction despite all of this that's out there?

Mark: 7:54

Well, you've got pressure. Whether it starts at home for parents to go to their student athletes or to go to their kids and say, well, the pressure to earn scholarship money. So that is, that is the number one driver. you've got parents that, and that goes along with it, potentially parents that did not have. A multi-sport experience in high school so that that plays along with it. Like, you know, my, you know, "I, say you have a mom who was a club soccer and a soccer, a D one soccer player, and a dad who was like a, D one baseball only. They didn't do any other sports and they had that. "I mean that's a tough fight to talk with that kid because, you know, he says a basketball only kid. And then you have the pressure from the parents. Then you have the pressure from the AAU club, and the, the financial pressure that's put on the parents. So not only they have the pressure to get their student athlete into a good school and hopefully have a scholarship, you have the. Does that cost a lot of money? Uh, then you have the pressure from the parents to the student athlete. "I. It's probably indirect pressure. "I. Don't know if a parent come out and say, I've paid this. Well, maybe if the kid tries to quit a club, but they've, they're gonna invest so much money financially, say, into this one sport for the student athlete through club year, round club, whether it's, you know, club hockey, club softball, aau, you know, parents will be like, I'm spending all this money. I need you to do this sport. And then there's the comes with that, unrealistic expectations because they have so much potential success in club or au they think that's gonna translate into high school. and you've used this quote before. Things tend to work their way out as they get older. "I know, you and "I have always had conversations about these problem kids that we had. you know, back in the day when we coached together. And "I, remember you always say it's gonna work its way out. You know, the kids figure it out whether the kids cut themselves it gets worked out. So as they get older, that kind of. They get the writings on the wall, and that gets worked out junior, senior year. But when they come in as a freshman, they've done all this club stuff and they, you know, there's that unrealistic expectation. So that's, difficult. Now with multi-sport athletes, there's certain things that you can do and things that we do, at Wakanda. Um, we have play two, play three banners that we take pictures seniors only. It's based off of what they did as a junior and we hang them in our athletic hallway. They're big banners. They're four foot by six foot banners. They say play two or play three. It's a nice pitcher. We do it on pitch day and it lists all the activities. We include marching band. so the day we put those banners up, it's like it stops traffic. Like kids just see and the kids get to keep the banners. The kids and parents get to keep the banners. We also are going, this year we're gonna start with the 12 sport athlete plaque, where we're gonna memorialize all of our 12 sport athletes each year with a plaque in our athletic hallway. Um, I. Those are just ways. The kids are celebrated on what they do. we also discuss it with all the head coaches, because we have the head coaches have the ability to have that connection with the kids. Uh, the head coaches, need to support multi-sport athletes because, our discussions are, it's only gonna benefit your program. It's only gonna benefit you per, we're not gonna ask you to actively. Say, promote a sport over your sport. You're just saying that please go out and do multiple sport. Do do multi-sport. And there's, four or five attributes that we will tell the head coaches if the kids ask. These are the things that you say we can get into that. So, and we also have assistant coaches. Um, you know, one of our, our head freshman football coach, uh, was a division "I football player, and he got recruited. When he was a basketball player, he said the reason he got recruited by U of "I is because U of "I coaches came and watched him play basketball in high school. he goes, they'd seen my tape on football, as a lineman, a d lineman, eventually an old lineman at a tight end, they saw him play basketball. So that message then is coming from all sorts of coaches at every level. Play multiple sports, play multiple sports, and the coaches coach other sports in the building, you know, like "I head football coach is an assistant wrestling coach. It's great But it's just like you start to build these bridges within your program and the kids consistently get the same message. Like, what are you doing? you're going on for sport, what you do in the winter. So those are the types of things that you have to do to offset all those pressures, those external pressures coming from the parents, coming from the club coaches. they saying, well, you, you gotta do this. You have to specialize in this, you have to do club volleyball. And it's just like, listen, you need to be, you need to be able to have a different set of eyes, evaluate. You have a different set of a different program evaluating your grades and keeping track of your grades and being able to do a variety of movements that is ultimately going to make you a. athlete, and you, and, and you had mentioned it with the, uh, baseball coachs from South Carolina. Just going through, since you know, you know, I'm a Michigan, Michigan guy, listening to Jim Harbaugh's quotes on every single, almost every single one of his recruits, he led off with their, their sport. He like talked more about track and basketball, but some of these recruits than even did football. Because he knows most of his recruits are multi-sport kids and they're elite multi-sport kids, meaning, yeah, sure they're going to Michigan for football, but they were, oh, by the way, they were an Allstate wrestler. They were an Allstate basketball player. They were, a track kid like a Allstate, you know, state medalist and tracks. So it's going to help when you have these division "I, high level head coaches that make those statements. It still won't matter to some parents, but as parents you have to be like, listen, you wanna play football in a division "I football, you better play other sports. You better play minimum, you better do another sport, if not two other sports. So it's a long answer. Uh, it's a huge issue. not necessarily for me, but at the, in the national stage and the conversations "I had at the national conference, a lot of ad's are, are struggling. Very, very big time with this.

Luke: 13:42

Yeah, it is a huge issue facing all sports, from the youth level, middle school, all the way up through high school. And it's something that despite the Hardballs of the world saying these things, for whatever reason, the message is not resonating. And in addition to those great things that you throughout, that you guys do uniquely to your high school "I, think we both know that what also will help is the relationship between the player and the coach because. if there is an authentic, genuine relationship between the athlete and his or her coach, they're more likely to hang onto that sport because they value they being the athletes, that relationship with the coach. So with that said, what are some cool unique ways that the coaches that will come to high school are building relationships with their.

Mark: 14:30

Well, that's part of our interview process when it comes to our head coach, is one of our questions is how do you build meaningful relationships? Talk, walk us through how you build relationships with kids. So, the discussion that we focus on with that is, The coaches, it has to be intentional with, with taking time to get to know your student athletes. It's got to be intentional. And by intentional, that's kind of a code word for you're gonna carve out some practice time And to, to us. By taking time outta your practice for a check-in and checkout, to have a five minute conversation to go through your zones of regulation with your kids. there's tools there. You use them. "I know it's a sel is a, is a, is a large push in our district, which is, which is great. because as, as an admin team, we, we do it as well. So being intentional with the time to get to know the kids. A and, and again, that checks that SEL box, like they're building those relationships. Um, being able to, cuz you know you're a head coach. Coaches are, they're, they are, they're "I. "I. It's no big deal. and they're passionate, but they're blinders. Especially in season. Their blinders are on, blinders are on, I've gotta do this, I've gotta do this. But the, the coaches have been good about it. with carving out that time, being intentional about it, like not taking 25 minutes, but just again, five minutes a day. like boy, my head boy's basketball coach, they, they start the practice with shoot rounds. You can see him and his assistant walking around talking to every single kid. That's their check-in checkout. And the kids are, they're, they're working on their pre-practice drills, but the coaches are talking around and. basically shooting the breeze. So say if we were, you know, football and they were doing their dynamic warmup, all the coaches spread out. Go talk to kids. Just go talk to 'em. Just go, Hey, how was your day? How was your weekend? Hey, you know, "I saw you in the hallway. You know, you were having your soldiers goodbye with your girlfriend or whatever. Just, just screwing around with them, just like getting to know them having the banter back and forth and, and building that relationship because, Again, "I, "I. None of the coaches are against that, but the, the spin that we say is it's only gonna help you out, "I. It's only gonna make your program better because it's bound. You're bound to have a. Not, uh, not a beautiful, awesome, positive conversation with your student athletes all the time. So the way it's gonna help you is, is you've already built that relationship when you do have to love them hard, you do have to coach, coach them hard because they've done something. So, and then that goes back to the sense of belonging for the student athlete. They feel as though they belong to something that's, that's just bigger than them. They're just not a student in high school. So they, they have a, a high sense of belonging, which is research proven that that's, that helps the sel, that helps, um, that helps the building that relationship. So sense of belonging, getting to those student athletes, being intentional with practice time. And, um, "I, you know, having little mini awards throughout the season that they're not performance based. They are, um, who, who was the coolest in dress up days? Like, which one of our kids is, was wore the ugliest sweater. Like, you've gotta find things that. Gets the kids minds off of performance-based objectives and goals. Cuz that is gonna be always the goal, goal. We're gonna performance-based this and that. But having a little built-in award and, and "I know our basketball team did that "I know we've had other teams do that and the kids do a great job. "I mean they dress up, they have really good school spirits. So you've gotta find ways to acknowledge that and to celebrate them. So then they're, you got 'em, you "I mean you, at that point, you've, you can tell them to do anything you've. Because they, they have a great relationship with you. They feel like they're totally belong to something bigger than themselves. and they just "I don't know that's, that's the way to do it.

Luke: 18:03

that's the key piece. Getting them to understand that it is much larger than themselves. And when they do, that's when something really special, like you say, the results end up taking care of themselves. And along those lines, "I think the other important relationship is the athletic director and coach relationship. So "I know you want to, you know, have that look the same way that you want your head coaches, assistant coaches, and athletes to look like as well. So what steps are you taking as an athletic director to earn the trust of your head coaches. So they view you as a mentor and or a collaborator rather than just merely a superior who's going to be judging their performance.

Mark: 18:42

so along the same lines, it's intentional. Um, a couple of other examples, when "I took over as athletic director at, Larkin High School in Elgin, Illinois, I was a very light in soccer knowledge. Real light "I, mean "I had been on football and baseball. "I did some wrestling. "I did some tracks. "I really, "I had never "I, played soccer "I as like a seven or eight year old, but, and "I "I. It was kind of twofold. My secretary at the time, her husband was a huge English Premier League soccer fan, and my head coach was a huge English Premier League soccer fan. So what did "I do? "I started to like find out as much as "I could and watch a little premier league here and there, and that gave me my in. to get to know him a a little bit better. And obviously it helped with getting to know Nancy, my secretary. So that was on purpose. "I, "I, Tammy, my wife was like, wait, why are we watching soccer? "I was like, just "I. Just "I need "I, need "I need to keep up on this. So, and eventually, okay, "I had to have a uncomfortable conversation with my soccer coach about something. but since we had built a, a good relationship that. helped us navigate through that conversation. So just talking "I, "I do enjoy talking shop with all the head coaches, but "I like to do it in a, a just kind of a conversation. Like we're just talking. We're just talking, you know, like, uh, being out

Luke: 19:58

Right. Yeah. It's not like, it's not like a

Mark: 20:00

No I. No, I'm not, not, yeah, I'm not, yeah. I'm not taking notes. I'm out there. I'm just shooting the breeze with them out on the golf course. But then you bring yourself into it like, man, "I couldn't, "I could never hit a shot like that. Like she's awesome. Like, you know, hey talk but then there's a little evaluative question, as we walk up, we both, the head coach and "I walked up to like the third chef or. Our exceptional golfer who made it all the way to state, "I was like, so what are you, what are you talking to live about here? What are you talking to her about here? And it's a, it's a innocent. "I "I. Hope they feel it's innocent question, but that's a little evaluative question. Like that's an "I. "I can directly evaluate the coach, even though I'm just having an informal conversation. Uh, the other way is just getting to know the coaches, continually checking in, like their family, their wives, their kids. Like, You know, either through, cuz there are some assistants. "I. "I. Just because "I see, cuz especially cuz they're PE teachers, "I have a little different relationship with some of these assistants. So "I can get some info on, say, some of the head coaches that I'm building a relationship with from these assistants. And then I'll just interject that in a conversation and they'll be, some are surprised, like, oh, how'd you know about that? Or, you know, or just getting to know. Again, you've got to, when you listen to the coaches and have those conversations with the coaches, you've just gotta make mental notes on certain things that you know, that they like, certain things that make them tick. And then it's the, just like with the coaches celebrating the non-athletic stuff, you've gotta find a time to have that conversation that does. It doesn't, it's not even the same galaxy as their sport. So, I've got head coach that's, uh, an outside of the building. He's a, he, he, he works for a gas company, but Will, even though "I will talk about, cuz he's kind of a, he's a mid-level manager for his position. So he is doing the same thing outside of school, but with grown adults and "I, we actually talk more about his job, his day job And that's intentional cuz I'm trying to get to know him because he was an assistant on the varsity level. So "I "I knew him a little bit. "I didn't know him as well as the head coach. So again, just finding that in and I totally don't see myself as above them. I'm like, Hey, we're all in this together. We're all doing this. Like, I'll grab chairs to help set up, like they see that and they have those conversations and we're all, we're all, we're all in the same boat here. We're all doing the same thing. Okay. Yeah, I'm the ad. and "I will give you guidance, and if something goes awry I, it's gonna happen. I've built a relationship with them and it's a work in progress. "I can't, "I can't have an incredible relationship with all head coaches, but, you better believe there are certain head coaches that have a larger footprint within the athletic department that it's, it's very intentional. "I have to have a very good relationship with them.

Luke: 22:38

Right. It's finding that common ground, just like you do as a coach to player, and you alluded to this, it's, it's a very similar process of being intentional but also genuine and trying to know who they are outside of the sport, just like we do with athletes. And you know, the thing on common ground that's always fascinated. Is the complicated relationship between coach and parents, and although you both share a common ground, and that is that individual athlete who we both love and we both want the best for "I mean, let's be honest. Especially like you said about the bulldozer parents today. It's complicated, "I. It really is. So, with that said, you know, you have to work as an ad many times as a mediator between that complicated relationship of coach and parents. So help our coaches listening now to understand how they best can create a harmonious relationship with their parents.

Mark: 23:34

Well, "I would, "I would tell you that You don't want to take a stance of you don't wanna have anything to deal with parents like you need. You have to invite the parents in and they've got to be an active part of your program. You've got to involve them especially as a head coach, there's gonna be a lot of work that you need to get done on a student athlete. You need every single resource available. You're gonna use all the resources at. well, you know, the parents are gonna see 'em, "I know the coaches and teachers see the kids probably more than the parents. But you've got to involve the parents. You've got to find a way to build that relationship, with the parents so they can help you. you've gotta have flawless communication. You've gotta be able to talk to the parent. And again, "I say that, but knowing that there, there are times where you get a bulldozer. and "I and potentially, if you haven't built any type of a trusting relationship with nobody's fault, it's just, you just, it's just the co They've stayed away, you know, at an arm's length, but then they come and bulldoze over something. They, it usually comes to me first and I'll kick it down right away. Cause my first question is, has your son or daughter talked to the coach? Well, no. Okay. Uh, have you talked to the coach? Well, no. "I said, well, "I, I'm sorry. I'm not at practice every day, so "I can't, "I don't know where "I can help you. "I said, these are the steps and outlining these steps and. You know, we've, we've done in-person parent meetings at the start of the year, we gotta do another one because with Covid, "I, it's been like four years since we actually brought parents in, and we gotta go over the protocols and the chain of command and all that stuff. But, the coaches have to be, again, I'm using this word a lot. They have to be intentional with their ability to get that trusting relationship with the parent. You've got to build, you know, whether. example, what you did back in the day where you had the Thursday night meeting with the da, with, well, with anyone. "I. "I was mainly the dads to go over a game plan before a game. Because. You can hook "I and you almost want to get to know your biggest critic of all the parents. And you almost need to hook that person in because, cause they're the first ones to start chirping in the crowd if you can get them and be like, "I, no, no, guys, calm down. He, he talked about this in that the, the parent, parent meeting. This is, this is his strategy. You, if you can hook that. biggest naysayer parent kind of on your side, so to speak. You as a head coach, you probably can diffuse half your issues right there and, and even if the season is rolling, you're still gonna have potential issues with parents cuz there's, there's parents that are bulldozing and trying to get their, their son or daughter. All the accolades. And they want, they have that, those external pressures from club and the financial pressures. but again, you've got to be able to invite them in. And it's more than "I mean. Yeah, the standard. Have your parent meeting and discuss all your expectations. and some of the coaches are good with that, but then you ask them to step outside of that box and they get nervous. So that's where myself and my assistant ad come in and be like, okay, let's walk, walk us through what you're gonna say and we'll give them re we'll give them tools and and ideas in terms of how they can evolve parents. And This is more than having like a, a mom, you know, of a freshman mom or teen mom or something like that. This is involving them. Now again, "I, you have to draw that line. We're not involving you in the game plan. We're not involving you in what plays we're gonna call or, or day-to-day or the playing time. You're not involved in that, but you're involved in, All the other aspects, "I in regards to, to what you're trying to do and inviting them in on. these are all the, things that we're trying to do, all the attributes that we're trying to build. New sign. If you invite them in and you, you explain to them everything that you're doing, and especially if it's done, like we talked about, all the steps besides the winning and the winning and losing the results. All the steps are good and, and all the, the processes are in place. 90, 95% of the parents are gonna be like, All good. Whatever you need, just let me know. You just, you have to have that open line. It can't be a mystery. Again, maybe it was a mystery 20, 30 years ago, "I don't think it could be a mystery anymore. You have to, pull the curtain and say, this is what we're gonna do. Like "I, we're gonna coach your kids super hard, but we're gonna love him super hard, but it's not always gonna be great. "I was like, there's gonna be times where there's gonna be adversity. and um, Again, that's something that coaches "I, "I don't say struggle with. It's just outside of a box. It's like, and "I know as a young coach, "I have been like, no way. "I mean, you and "I have talked about it. Like, I'm not gonna, they wanna do this, they wanna do that. Like, no way. They we're not doing that. It's different. You want to get them involved in the whole process. That'll help.

Luke: 28:09

for sure. You never could communicate too much. There's no such thing. Secondly, just like with the athletes, if we make the parents feel as if they're part of something larger than themselves, they too are gonna have a much larger positive experience. And like you said, that beginning meeting, although really important to start the season, that can't be it. There has to be more to it and. If you're proud of what you do and you know you do things the right way, you should wanna pull the curtain back. You should want parents to see that, which is only gonna help you to have more on your side. And "I, "I hate to say on your side cuz that kind of makes it sound really adversarial, but it's the truth. And. The stuff in the stands, you're never going to get away from that. That's sports. That's the beauty of sports "I. It's good that people care, right? Because the opposite is you don't want to be at a place where nobody cares like that. That's, that's not good either. So, Like all things, it's balance. You wanna welcome them in, but you can't have 'em in Too much. You want to have a great relationship with them, but you also have to keep it professional. You can't be buddy buddy with them because that could really jockey up your decision making as a head coach because now you're thinking personally when you have to really make a lot of decisions based on business because it is a

Mark: 29:24

And that's. Yeah. And that's important what you say because we have to discuss with the coaches those little sidebar conversations. When a parent approaches you, not game time stuff. Say if, uh, say "I had boy's basketball coach is wrapped to practice and is gonna stick around and watch the girls basketball game "I, you might have a basketball parent who's got a daughter on the basketball team. He might be there and he might bend your ear. So we've gotta tell those coaches. Be careful. Just have that conversation. But you can't give 'em the keys to the castle. You've gotta just, you gotta be a touch, guarded, even if it's a "I, don't wanna say great player, because that could be it. Just, even if it's a overall, you've never had any, any issues pop up. You just, you have to be guarded. You have to be guarded. You have to, you have to embrace that relationship.

Luke: 30:14

have to set, you have to set parameters essentially is what you're talking about. So I'm okay if I'm at a event or I'm out in public, I'm okay "I want them to feel comfortable enough to come talk to me. But you also have to have the parameters in place and sometimes you have to shut it down and say, hold on a minute, this conversation's going in a direction "I didn't think it was gonna go to. If you'd like to set up a meeting with me at another time, that's fine, cuz right now I'm here with my kids and we're just support. This other sport like "I don't, "I don't need to have this conversation now. So it, it's something that "I it takes time to, to massage it into what you want it to look like as a head coach. But to wrap up this point of the, of the questioning, you are right. You can't be standoffish. You can't say "I. Don't want any parent involvement because that's not what's best for you as a head coach or for your athletes or for your parents. Overall. "I mean the more it's a a family experience, the better it is for everyone. But "I mean we could have a whole episode just on that, that relationship of parent and coach, because it's complic. Arguably getting even more complicated because more and more parents because of the club circuit, because of the money involved, feels if they should really have a voice into what you are doing. But with that said, "I do wanna transition before "I get too caught up on that one and move into the idea of. Elevating as a coach and while he sought out d Dion Sanders, it's well known now, the head coach at Colorado. And he said a quote in there that "I really loved when he was talking to his team that he was leaving, why he was leaving their school. And he said, in coaching, you get elevated or you get terminated, and that's the reality of the business that we're in. It really is no matter how many relationships you make, and no matter all of these things that you do within kids, there is definitely a performance component to what we do. And if, if it's not meeting the snuff, you're gone. Now, with that said, A lot of coaches do have goals to be in the chair that you're in right now. Many coaches want to be athletic director. Now, "I wanna stress. That's not me. "I have no interest in being an athletic director. "I, see what you guys have to do, and there's no way "I could do that. However, for those listen, who do want to be an ad? What's the process that they should be doing if they do have these aspirations of being elevated ad like what should they be doing right now to position themselves to be able to get that ad job that they've always sought out in their career?

Mark: 32:50

Well, yeah, jokingly I'd say don't do it. But, uh, no. Um, "I get it aside. It's a great profession. You get to see all sorts of, um, all sorts of kids develop and grow over the years. you get to have the natural ebbs and flows of a school year. You get to have your times where you get to look forward to certain things and, and you get to look forward to certain breaks as well. you know, finding if there's a seasonal sports supervisor position, if their district has something like that. So, um, if You know, there's like a seasonal stipend, you know, you're a fall head coach and there's a seasonal stipend in the spring or in the winter, take that position and that posi like a, an entry level position where you'll have to be in charge of, you know, you know, security of the student section, you know, hiring workers, taking care of the officials. Like, just kind of like bits and pieces of being an ad. that'll kind of get your feet wet in regards to. that role and gaining experience for that role "I. And that would be, um, you know, it depends, it depends on the school district, depends on what they have. Um, like we have an a full of an 11 month full-time assistant ad, but then we have a retired, a retired. Teacher and coach, who is Just kind of like the chairman of the board, so to speak, of what we do. And, and that person does all sorts of other things for the department. So finding out what's available, going for that position. you know, as a "I it's, it's tough because as "I had coach, it's a potentially a 12 month position if you're going to, do it that way. so it's probably gonna be a hard sell to if you don't coach, say, in the spring, and there's a seasonal sports position, you know, hard sell to, to the spouse. but again, "I mean "I. "I would tell 'em, listen, you're more invested in the school. You get to see kids in a different light. And oh, by the way, "I need to build my resume. I need to check a box. You know, because when "I "I as being a head varsity, That's a, that's a good resume. "I have Ne "I was never a head varsity coach, so that's number one. "I was a head lower level coach, and "I had coached a decent amount of sports, but "I was never a varsity coach. but then once "I got my foot in the door, that was, and "I don't think my first job, they asked me that. And "I did start as a dean. at a junior high before "I got to be an ad. So you also also have to be open to potentially taking an entry level admin position. Even though you say you wanna be an ad, you may have to leave your school and go be a, an administrator, a dean, or like an entry level administrative position Not everyone can just go from, you know, a head varsity coach at their school and be an ad at their school. That just, that's not, if it happens, great, but that's not typo. The typical path, the typo path, especially in administration, is You've gotta be able to kind of draw a circle around, you know, 20 miles around your home. Or 30 miles, whatever it is, and you, you have to be comfortable with stepping outside of even being tenured. You have to "I. It's a step, like if you wanna do that, you just have to know that and you may have to take an ad position. Um, so if you get to the point where you're, you're involved in an interview, you're a finalist a and it's a school that you've never been at before, I, "I, you just have to be prepared. You have to just walk yourself and your spouse through the fact that, well, I'm gonna take this challenge. This is just Okay. It could be a stepping stone "I, don't wanna tell anyone at that school. It's a stepping stone. But it's like, okay, I've gotta get years of experience. I've gotta do this. And you know, while you're in that process is what "I did is wherever you're at, you just make that school, make that position the best position it can be, just that's what you focus on. But "I, that's a difficult thing. "I mean if people get comfortable, people don't necessarily wanna leave. Um, but starting with a seasonal sports supervisor, Like a stipend position. If you could do that a couple years and get your feet wet, maybe there's a way that there's an assistant athletic director position at your school that's not, you know, it's like you teach a couple classes and then you're an assistant AD for the remainder of the day, so then you do all the scheduling, the buses and all the sec, you know, security pay for the workers because there's just so many things. You know, there's just, you know, "I do all the scheduling, and "I evaluate all the head coaches, "I, evaluate all of our work athletic workers, "I, evaluate my secretary "I, evaluate my assistant ad. but "I delegate quite a lot of tasks. Um, but "I also provide supervision, to all home athletic events and "I go to away at athletic events. So, Um, maybe "I should have started with that. Like you have to, you have to find out what the entire job encapsulates and then you have to go through as a head coach. Cuz as a head coach you're doing a lot of those things. but you just, you have to kind of know what you're getting in, in for. Uh, but those are some small steps. "I didn't necessarily take that path. "I went from as a teacher to a dean of junior High and then "I got an ad position and "I was also a department chair. at that. and then "I parlay that into something that was closer to home and it was a, a pay raise and it was, um, the school I'm at now, we've, we've really, as, we've kind of had a nice, a nice linear, progression over the six years I've been there, so, yeah.

Luke: 37:48

Yeah, you have to ingratiate yourself in whatever it is that you want from a career standpoint, and you don't know what you don't know. I've talked on all of these episodes, it inevitably comes up that people think they wanna be a head coach. They think they're prepared cuz they've been an assistant at a high level. You don't, you do not know what that's like until you're actually in that chair. And the same holds true for athletic director. So "I would agree, even though I'm not an athletic director, "I would agree that it's important for you to try to acclimate yourself to all of the different aspects of the profession of that, of that job title. Because you, you really do not know all the things you're gonna really have to be doing. So to be able to be prepared to walk into an interview, to win the job, you have to show that committee, Hey, I've done this, I've done this. "I have done this. Although "I, don't check every box yet, because if you, if you've never been in a before, you haven't, it's not your fault. At least you've done all these other things. So you know what, you're walking into it eyes wide open and really have a good feel for the position. Because like "I said at beginning, and like I'll reiterate now as we're ending. It's a tireless job and you know, the principal gets a lot of notoriety. The head coach of football, basketball, baseball, they get a lot of notoriety. But in all reality, the athletic director is probably the person logging the most hours that many people are, are unaware of. So, Kudos to you for all that you're doing, and thank you for all that you're doing. It's a very important job. I'm sure there's days that you feel like, what the heck am "I doing? But it doesn't change the fact that you are impacting an entire culture within your building. So "I, appreciate that. "I, appreciate our friendship and thank you for being so giving of your time. And thanks to Mother Nature for giving us this cold weather, which allowed us to be inside, to have the time to actually. This episode as you usually are, so busy, so happy holidays to you and your family.

Mark: 39:45

it and appreciate Yeah. Our friendship "I appreciate uh, everything you're doing for coaches, because anytime you can give coaches pd, It's just so invaluable. "I, "I. And there's just so many different avenues for coaches to try to gain experience and knowledge, and to try to figure out because there's so many things that head coaches per our fault as Adss. There's so many things that head coaches have to do nowadays that do, that takes them away from Xs and os. "I. I'll be honest, "I tell coaches that all the time. I'm like, I'm sorry, this is, this is on me. I'm part of the problem. It's definitely, it is. From what the, when you probably first started coaching to compared to now, you know, the 25 years or so that you've been involved in, uh, high school athletics or so it's just changed. It's changed so much, but yeah, "I mean it's something that, you know, until you sit in that seat. Because it's easy. It's easy to be a Monday morning quarterback. It's easy to second guess, but until you sit in that seat, whatever seat that is, AP ad head coach, until you sit in that seat, you set it perfectly. You don't know what you don't know, and you, you're not gonna know for a year or so. It's gonna be like a year or two and you're finally gonna be like, okay, this is what we did. We didn't do this right. Okay, this is what we're gonna do. And "I, just say "I, do that all the time. "I do that all the time. One of the questions "I ask in the post-season with the coaches is, Um, what do you need me to do better? "I. Don't care. I'm not gonna take it personal. Just tell me "I, don't "I. "I want to hear what they think because I'm not perfect. "I "I And a lot of times "I head coaches will have really good ideas on better ways to communicate or, different things within the athletic. "I don't care. It's, I'm not gonna take it personal. It's not my athletic department, it's our athletic department. So what are we gonna do to make it better? But yeah, "I mean, it's just, those are types of things that as a head coach, don't be afraid to tell your a. Uh, regardless if you're AD S or not, don't be afraid to be like, listen, can "I give you some suggestions? "I mean most, you would like to think, most ad's would be like, Hey, sure, let's talk. but yeah, no, "I appreciate it. It's um, it's a great profession. It, there's a lot of hours, but there's "I. "I mean when things are great, the weather's great. You go outside, get to watch sports, get outside in the sun, get to see kids develop, and it's, there's more pros and cons, but that's every job. There's gonna be pros and cons with every job. So you gotta figure out, you gotta figure out a good fit for you and your family. And so it's a, it's not a burden, but yet, like you said, you have to understand that it's going to be, there's gonna be days or weeks or months where you're just like, "I, "I, "I. Don't know, "I. Dunno if "I can do this. And there, there's too many, there's too many good people leaving education, so you've gotta figure out, the best fit for you and your family.