If You Love It, You Must Love All of It w/Michael Schanhals

Mike: 0:00

you can't love something and not love all of it. "I think you just, you just gotta go with it. So, I think if people know where you're coming from and you're there to have their kids back, then you can get over some of those, pinch points.

Luke: 0:24

You know, many of us tend to believe that we have it harder than the guy next to us that we're so busy, there's no time to do the things that matter most, like working out and taking care of ourselves, reading, writing, and hanging out with our family. Well, today's guest, Mike Shane Halls may actually be too busy for all these things. Mike is Hope College's head, lacrosse coach. And in his free time, He's also a full-time high school English teacher, and if that's not enough, he also fills holes in his day by also coaching at one point football, tennis, and even middle school basketball. So Mike "I have to start with balance. It's something that "I have struggled with throughout my whole career. Cause "I tend to. All in as a coach, as most coaches are, and it's very consuming. How the heck are you finding any type of life balance between really holding two full-time jobs, plus coaching your kids in sports and being a dad and a husband, and all those things that come with life?

Mike: 1:26

Wow. That's a great question. Uh, "I think being an English teacher. keeps me grounded in terms of not getting too carried away with the sports. and "I, you know, as "I transition, you know, from that into, you know, working mostly at the college in the future. You know, "I need to make sure "I "I balance that "I need to make sure "I keep teaching and, and don't lose that perspective. Right? So, I'm lucky enough to work with college aged men, but "I also work. you know, high school seniors primarily during the course of the day. So, you know, "I know, "I know what it's like, you know, "I know what their days are like. you know, we had a kid, Geno Bataglia a few years ago call practice recess and it was during exam week and we were just slugging it out and you could just tell, and it was kind of raining and cold, you know, like it could be in the spring. And he just looked around and he said, guys, this is. Study break, man. This is like recess for us. Let's run around and play our guts out. You know, so "I think that that really put things into perspective for us as a program, but also for me, it's like, man, that's exactly, could not have hit the nail on the head any better than that for me, "I. Just so look forward to that part of my day. And "I love, waking up in the morning and recruiting a little bit before "I. Go to work. Once "I get to work, "I love flipping the switch and, teaching English and, being there for those kids. and then "I have a, a drive about an hour's drive, uh, to get to hope from here. And, you know, "I just sort of reset and, uh, look forward to that, next phase of my day. And, uh, "I just love it. You know, "I just love it. "I mean, "I, "I, "I really couldn't do it if "I didn't really, really enjoy it. Uh, and I've been fortunate, you know, both of my boys went to school. at North Muskegon. And so "I got to bring him to school with me, and if "I wanted to go see 'em at lunch, "I could go hang out and, you know, say hello to 'em quickly or tell 'em to eat their carrots or whatever the, you know, was on the agenda for that day. So "I spent a lot of time with my boys and I'm really grateful for that. They're 21 and 25 now, so "I don't get to spend as much time with them anymore. But "I, it was, uh, it was a good balance for me. It was a really, really good balance for me. So, "I "I, feel. That I've had the opportunity and "I have my two dream jobs. "I just have 'em at the same time, simultaneously. So it's pretty, pretty cool to be able to, do all that.

Luke: 3:53

So give us a glimpse into your daily routine, meaning the time you get up to the time that you're coming home, and let's talk in season to help shed a light on how busy you really are. Because if you're getting up in the morning to work out to recruit, you teach during the day, you have an hour commute to get to hope. You obviously have a, a big job in heading up a, a collegiate program, and then you have an hour commute back, plus I'm sure you have to at night as well. So take us through that daily process time. You get up to the time you're going.

Mike: 4:27

you know, the, the important thread that goes through all those phases of things. One, "I, "I, "I. Don't mind being busy. To be, uh, as John Wooden called it, industrious, right? That's like the bottom left of his pyramid. and my dad always told me, you know, get up, you hustle. Like this is what we're doing today. We're getting after it. So, I, just think that's sort of how, how everything was expected of me and "I come by it a little bit naturally too. Uh, The thing that I've learned is "I need to be where my feet are. "I need to be connected with the people. You know, if "I "I get a chance to talk to my wife in the morning as we're having breakfast. and that's a nice, you know, start to the day. And then, you know, when my boys were at home and "I could throw 'em in the car and take him to school, you know, just to be present for them. And, and the same thing, first hour, second hour, third hour, fourth hour, fifth hour, sixth hour, "I have a Norse time at the end of the day. And, and to. It's such a blessing to be able to connect with these really cool, interesting people all day long. And then "I get a little break while I'm in the car, you know? And a lot of people are like, ah, you know, that's a long drive and stuff like that. It's "I, don't mind it. You know, "I do need some recharge time "I. Think I'm a little bit more introverted than "I am. "I introverted. So that's nice time for me to kind of catch up, listen to some podcasts, these days, which "I appreciate very much.

Luke: 5:44

Especially the "I Win

Mike: 5:46

Especially The "I" in Win podcast, "I been totally binging those, you know, so they're so good. Uh, and I'm really kind of excited cuz there's so many more that "I have to listen to, so I'm pumped about that. and then when "I get to to practice, you know, "I "I walk out onto the field and it's just like "I, you know, I'm. "I going to play myself, "I, wish "I was still playing myself. But it just, it's the next best thing. And, to be able to do that at this level with this team, you know, that's my team. that's where "I played. I'm so proud of them. And that's, you know, this program that we've, we've worked really hard to get, to where it is today. So, I couldn't do it if it didn't mean so much. and it's just such a treat to be able to connect with such good people. And, and I'm really fortunate "I mean be able to teach all these years at North Muskegon. And to be able to coach at North Muskegon and to be able to coach at hope, it's been "I feel very, very fortunate.

Luke: 6:41

it's just inspiring to hear you talk about. And you can just see through the screen right now and hope our listeners can hear the passion that you have for both teaching and coaching and just being around. all these different individuals and that is what should fuel us. It's just really important cuz you do come across so many awesome people in this profession. So let's go back to where it's all, where it all started. East Grand Rapids High School. as "I was doing my research on you, "I came across something that's just fascinating to me. And Ed is the relationship between. And American Pie. So you were at East Grand Rapids in the nineties and, uh, really successful there. You earned three trips to the state finals, coming away with two trophies. and, you led them to an undefeated season in 1994. Unbelievable. And as "I was reading about your history, it turns out that "I, guess it's the screenwriter from American Pie, was one of your players. And you know, "I, guess that's part of your history. That is American Pie. So what is that connection?

Mike: 7:50

"I "I. Think he was buddies with, most of our players. so I'm not sure "I don't think he was on the team, but he was just really good friends with those guys and they had just a great group of, of young men and absolutely some characters So "I got a, "I, got a real education. Um, and this is, you know, "I was coaching there before "I was a teacher. "I was a writer at the time and, and, uh, worked in the business world a little bit as well. And Ju just was blown away by being. You know, spent time with these guys and strive together for something great. And they really showed me, you know, that balance, you know, we were talking about the balance. "I was like, those guys knew how to have a great time and they knew how to absolutely flip the switch and get after it when it was time to compete. and boy that fit that, that really fit me. You know, "I, just "I just loved those guys. and loved like what they stood for. Still strive for that, that same, you know, if "I could have put that in a bottle back then "I still strive for that, every day today. But they did it right. And I'm super proud of those, kids. And there definitely were some, some stories that that came out of that, that might not be podcast worthy, but uh, certainly were entertaining and they certainly were an education for me.

Luke: 9:08

Yeah, "I can only imagine "I mean. Not many coaches can say they won multiple state championships, but definitely not many coaches can say that they coach Stiffler. So that that puts you in a pretty unique category. But on a serious note, "I mean you really built one heck of a program there. Take us through the steps of how you built a championship program while at East Grand Rapids High.

Mike: 9:33

Well, "I would, "I would take exception to the, characterization that "I built it. So, I think they came from a winning tradition. "I think they had a, uh, an athletic culture and an academic culture that was out. and these guys knew how to win. and what "I knew how to do was to help them, get better, and, you know, give them everything that "I had to, drive their improvement. and so, I, just "I didn't do a whole lot of, uh, culture building, uh, or you know, all the stuff that's the rage these days. You know, they came, kind of came ready. With the energy and the enthusiasm and the competitive spirit. and we just had to get 'em on the same page and turn 'em loose. So "I feel really lucky. you know, and "I know what a special thing, you know, to me it was just like, oh, this is how we do it, you know, in those days. But "I now, after doing this for, 31, 32 years, "I, "I realized what a big deal that was, all the way back. And what a special group of. they are, so "I think it's a "I, think it's the 30th anniversary coming up of our first title, this spring. So I'm excited. Maybe we'll get a chance to get the guys back together a little bit.

Luke: 10:45

Yeah, there's no doubt how special it is to win on any level, and a lot of people don't understand how hard it is, and in some cases, a lot of luck has to be involved too. A lot of things need to go your way, and "I also really appreciate. Your honesty and also your humbleness because "I think those are two very important key characteristics for longevity of successful coaches is they recognize the fact that, hey, I'm only a, a piece in this puzzle. And really the players are the ones on the field making it happen. Because "I know the one thing, "I "I. Try to always remind my players, my parents, anyone that "I talk to my administration. coaches get too much credit and too much blame. You know, "I mean, that's just, that's just kind of like the reality of our profession, "I. And I'm okay with that. I've reconciled that. But, uh, you know, when you have a successful team, it takes special people. but let's not discredit how important the head coach is. You were in that process because you have to keep that train on the tracks, which is, very, very difficult. And you have a, a unique perspective cuz you get to see high school kids from multiple lenses. You get to see 'em inside your classroom as a teacher, but then you also get to see 'em as a college coach and you're out there recruiting 'em and getting to meet kids from all different areas. given that perspective, what do you think the kids today need most from their teachers and their coaches?

Mike: 12:24

Oh, "I. Love that question. Thank you. I think to, to use the kids' vernacular, we need to keep it real with them. and that's a harder and harder, thing to do. One, because "I have all the gray hair now. So back then

Luke: 12:39

they

Mike: 12:40

"I, "I Rapids. Yeah. "I was an athlete, you know, and, and now I'm an old coach and so that, that has changed for me. You know? Um, "I can't just walk out there. and B me, "I have to, "I, have to work at You know, "I have to work at it and "I have to give them what they, what they need. And so, no one wants feedback unless they trust you, right? So if you're gonna, you're gonna help anybody, whether it's an English class or on the field, you know, to give them guidance. you know, what does that look like? And, you know, I've spent the whole of my career trying to figure that out. "I even had a graduate class in it last summer. It was, great. You know, the idea that if you build a trusting relationship with people, you know, they're willing to listen to you a little bit more, that doesn't mean that they wanna hear it. Um, so that doesn't mean that they're ready. and even when you do have a really close relationship with people, they don't necessarily want your feedback all the time, on this or on that. And so, you know, to be supportive and to be helpful, and to coach, but it's hard to coach these days like we coached, back in the day. because you just don't have that hierarchical. structural respect built into everything. All right. So there's not as much respect for the title and there's, you know, 9 million armchair quarterbacks and, there's the second guessing is next level. And, that's not like, it hasn't always been that way. but I've never gotten yelled at, at the gas station about, English class, you know, it's always about who played point guard or what happened in this game. Why didn't we adjust the zone or, you know, they were in cover too. Why didn't we throw it underneath? You know? So there's always feedback that people wanna give you too. And so having the, toughness to listen, is something that I've had to learn. And, hopefully we can structure that so that the kids have an opportunity to learn. as they struggle through these things that they're doing, you know, not only are they playing ball, but they're growing up and, uh, you know, it's, you know, what a treat it is to be, you know, shoulder to shoulder with them as they go through that process. So

Luke: 14:47

Let's talk about that building. trust. do you do to build trust with kids in your classroom and the athletes on the field? "I mean you have to do something for that to happen, right? It's like, it's not gonna just, you're gonna walk out there and it's gonna be there.

Mike: 15:03

I think that's, uh, "I think it might be another John Wooden, but it's like, how can you tell if you can trust a person? Try it. Right. So you better advance that or it's not gonna come back to you, and so, having the wisdom and the the grace to know that this is only one little part of the process. You know, and that might be a difficult part of the process for them, but, you know, we learn a lot from going through things too. So, uh, just being there for 'em, and trying hard to be a good listener. Uh, it's, it's tough to scale that though, you know? So I'm in contact with over a couple hundred people a day. It's probably not, an equitable situation, right. I'm able to, I'm able to listen to certain people, but to be fair, they're not all willing to share with. all day, every day either. So it, it's all, it's never a dull moment, I'll tell you that. But it's, it's interesting how much we learn about them by just working shoulder to shoulder with them. and then, my mission when "I wake up in the morning is to be helpful. And it's that simple, you know, and that, that looks like lots of different things. And obviously I've learned a lot throughout that process too. And it's an imperfect process. You can try your guts. and it, it still might not work. And "I think that's what "I love about it. I don't wake up and think, well, today's gonna be the same as it was yesterday. It never is. It's, it's just a beautiful thing.

Luke: 16:24

That's a great mission. Be helpful. So simple, yet so hard as one of my assistant coaches loves to say and sometimes being helpful is just listening. And "I had a guest on a couple episodes ago who's a veteran Hall of Fame basketball coach, and he got to spend multiple summers working with John Wooden. At summer camps. And the one thing he mentioned to me that really stuck out to him about John Wooden is what a great listener he was. You know, here's the guy that could have controlled the room, controlled the conversation. He had all the rings, but he was the one that sat silently at a table and just listened. And "I have noticed, as I've gone on in my career, I've been at it 21 years, "I have. Talk less and listen more. when I'm in a room with my coaching staff and when I'm definitely around my players or my students, how important it is to just listen. And that is something that kids today are definitely struggling with. the attention to just listen to what we have to say. And "I think parents are struggling with that too. it's so true about no one's ever yelled at me at the gas pump, either or left a voicemail about their English class "I Wish they would

Mike: 17:43

Right.

Luke: 17:43

a lot more important, but Right. That's not what's going on. You talked about how the second guessing is higher than it's ever been. The art share quarter. I want you to be honest with this. Do you think that's good or bad? Do you care? Do you not care? "I mean? What do you think about the trajectory of sports right now? Because it is different than it was even 25 years ago.

Mike: 18:06

Wow. That's a another excellent. Insight and question, you know, so "I guess the first thing that "I would say is, these guys may be clowns, but this is my circus. Like, "I gotta own it. Like, whatever's going on today, it's, my deal. And, need to step up and, take care of things, And so, uh, Jocko Wiling book, extreme Owner. And "I didn't like reading that book cuz it put a lot of pressure on me that "I wasn't accustomed to having, to take responsibility for everything during the course of my day. That's a tall task, so it really stretched me and, and made me think about it. and has really changed a little bit of the way that "I "I assume responsibility for things instead of deflect. um, and try to try to soap that for my people, right? So it's, I'm gonna be helpful, one of the things "I have to do is to take some strain off them, Somehow, "I need to figure out a, a hack or a way to make it easier for them to, perform. and that's a continual challenge. And so "I, "I love that aspect of it. And "I also love the fact that people care cuz "I think that's probably, you know, the, the apathetic attitude. lots of things is the thing that "I "I just "I struggle. "I can't stand that. That really bothers me though. Well, "I don't care thing. So people care about sports. They really care. They irrationally care about sports. Right. and especially when it's your kid playing sports, So, it's so. to see, like we, we went and got a chance to see our, our nephew play hockey the other day. And it's so cool to be watching cuz it's just fun for Lisa and "I. and then we're watching, Williams folks, my brother-in-law and sister-in-law and they're really fired up about things and Lisa and "I are just looking at each other, kinda smiling like, ah, okay, that's us when it's our boys, you know, out there on the field too. So, People care and that passion is out there. And, that fandom and the, you know, "I, "I, love all of it. You can't, you can't love something and not love all of it. "I think you just, you just gotta go with it. So, I think if people know where you're coming from and you're there to have their kids back, then you can get over some of those, pinch points. and so "I that is important to be discreet about that, that's important to, to talk about a little bit, which as dudes "I don't know. If we talk about that, we're not super comfortable talking about it, would it'd be way easier just to go out and play, And then if someone wanted to complain about something, whatever, ignore it. And "I don't think you can, you just can't do that the same way now that you used to be able to. So you do have a little bit more time built into, we call it a debrief, you know, just let's debrief that. How did that go? and we have a much bigger team now too. So we have 45 guys on our roster. You know, we gotta be, synced up. And so that takes more communication. So communication is, something you really have to invest. and it's all within that context that we talked about, So it's, it's a beautiful mess, but it's, it's so much fun.

Luke: 21:16

That was a really powerful response. And "I, "I really like how you described it as a good thing that people care this much because, I'm not gonna lie, "I sometimes look at the negative side of that and it, as a head coach, it, it can really bog you down. So it is important to look at it as like, Hey, at least we have parents who do care. Right? Because what's the alternative? Would you rather have. An apathetic parent, as you referenced, someone who's not present. At least we have parents who do care in our community and look at the positive side of things. With that said, there's definitely helicopter parenting going

Mike: 21:53

No doubt. Yeah.

Luke: 21:54

What I'm hearing from college coaches is this is starting to actually seep in up there as well, where you guys are getting voicemails that a lot of us at the high school level have been getting for the past 20 years. So what do you do? What's your approach with the overzealous parent?

Mike: 22:10

I, "I. Think we're, we're in. So, "I mean there's a huge difference between a high school coach and a college coach. So "I can't, say like I've been yelled at way more. Way more for coaching middle school basketball than "I have for coaching college lacrosse, which sounds absurd, but that's just the facts of it. So I think because they're grown men, you know, you deal with them, you deal right with them. And that's not necessarily an easy thing, but they're right there, and, and you can have a quick conversation with them or you can hear them out or whatever that needs to happen. So, it's just not "I. It's so much better. You don't have that, that intermediary with the parent in the middle of it. Right. So, you know how it was handled when our, our son was playing, lacrosse and, you know, we, we were told not to talk to the not to talk to the head coach. Just like in no uncertain terms by the other parents. They're just like, Nope, that is not a, that is not a thing. if you want you know, your letter to be printed out and put on the bulletin board for everybody on this team to see it, you can just go ahead and do that. You know what "I mean? So you hear these like, intimidating stories about that. And then the way that it actually went down is that they were super helpful and over-communicated with us. And, our oldest was playing during the Covid "I shenanigans and trying to travel y you know, here and there and "I. It just was. "I "I was really impressed at the way, coach Connery at the University of Michigan communicated with us as parents, and "I took a lot away from that experience. Like, wow, "I need to do a better job of that. "I need to loop them in a little bit more. Um, and I'm, I'm like that at school too. "I. The kids in front of me are what "I spend, you know, 99% of my time, love and attention on. and the parents are cool, you know, I'll chat with them, but it's not, that's not super germane to. what we're trying to get done, really, it's not really my job. There's a little bit of PR obviously, but the, you know, the main focus of my day is to, help those kids, right? So "I, if part of that is communicating better with their parents, then you know, we gotta step up and do that. but people are irrational about sports and they're not super rational about their kids either. And if you put those two things together, then you've got quite a, quite a combination. So, you know, having our own. Watching, you know, our own kids play. You know, having a little bit of detachment and distance on that. And then also having the passion for it and the just irrationality of it go through us too. You know, it's, we're in a much different spot than we are now, than when "I was in my twenties coaching. There's no doubt about that.

Luke: 24:52

So with that said, of the focus being on the athlete, a big part of our job is motivating him or her to go find and pursue. Their best selves. Right? That's really important. So what do you do? And this is a big question and "I don't even know how you could sum it up, but it's something that "I am just, I'm very enthralled with this idea of motivation cuz "I think it's just such a big part of our job. What do you do to motivate.

Mike: 25:21

I think the most important thing is "I. Gotta live it. Right? You know, if "I want these guys to work out, then "I. "I need to get up and work out and "I. My workout's different at 54 than it was when "I was 24. But "I, it gets. Right. And that balance gets modeled for them. You know what, there's an old saying like, what you do speak so loudly that what you say cannot be heard. What is it about 7% of what you say is actually registering? You know, when you're talking to people and so forth. That's how you live your, your life. Um, and that's one thing that "I love about Hope College is that they, you know, I'm not a big wear on your. Type guy, but "I, it's important to me to try to do the right things and they do a nice job of, trying to model integrity for the students and the student athletes there. So, that's always been from the top down administration for all the way from the president on down to us and the athletics. You know, let's do this the right way. Okay. You know, school's first, now let's go play, let's compete fiercely. Um, but let's do it the right way. So, "I think that that part is the most important part. And "I can't handle much more than that, to be honest with you. So I've got a, I've got a fiery speech when I'm feeling a fiery speech, you know, when "I, when I'm feeling like we need to get work done, then we're getting work done. and "I think that's the, that's the fun part of coaching is that you're connected with these, these people and you're all striving for the same thing. And no season is the, you know, you might have a similar schedule or a similar conference schedule or whatever, but it's all different and every single year it has been, and it's gonna be this year too. So, um, how exciting to be able to go through that, together, with your team. So, the short answer "I guess is just live it right. Model it for them and, and live it.

Luke: 27:15

Coach so, so, so good. You're, you're hitting a chord that really resonates with me. I really believe that our job in the classroom out on the athletic fields, we have to be the person we want our players to be. we have to be the person we want our students to be. And. One question I'm sure you're asked a lot "I know "I Am is why did you, why'd you become a teacher and a coach? And it's actually a twofold one, which is what a lot of people say, because "I had such inspirational teachers and coaches that impacted my life for the better. But the other side of that that people are surprised to hear is "I had some really bad teachers and coaches that resonated with me negatively, that "I just felt other kids should not have to deal with. So "I just decided to jump into this profession to be that positive influence in someone's life. And "I was so acutely aware of people that were hypocritical when "I was in high school.

Mike: 28:17

Yeah. Yeah. No.

Luke: 28:19

"I, it just, it amazes me how many coaches and teacher. Miss this. Go be who we want them to be. Stop complaining about the youth of today and just go model the behaviors we want them to exhibit. So y as I'm sure you could tell from my animation in my arms, I'm, I'm fired up now. Amen, coach

Mike: 28:42

"I. Love it. "I Love it. Yeah. And "I "I guess. I just feel so lucky to play. I'd love to play when "I was a kid. and "I love to read and "I, you know, "I mean school was the whole nother kettle fish. But the, you know, learning is fun, you know, so, I'm all about it. and "I just been "I think it's just a such a lucky thing that "I get to do this.

Luke: 29:07

And since you've brought up professional development in reading, that's something that "I am really struggling with and a lot of other people that "I talk with. Same issue. We love to read. We love to learn, but it's finding those moments because again, "I tried to work out just like you, you answered previously like "I tried to do that. That's really important. you know, "I tried to be, my feet are just like you, but there's only 24 hours and at the end of the day, "I pull out my kind. and "I get two pages in and my wife is shaking me saying, Hey, you fell asleep. It's the same routine every night. So coach me up. How do you find time to read? Because "I just can't do a book on tape. "I do podcasts in my car all the time. I'm good with that. But when "I read, I need to absorb it. "I need to highlight and take notes, and I'm that nerdy English teacher at that moment. So where do you find the time to still.

Mike: 30:07

I just "I. Think it happens in streaks, right? So, I'm not reading as much this week a novel, but I'm reading everyone's best writing from the term, you know, so I'm reading a ton and taking a ton from that. but it's amateur reading. You're writing, you know what "I mean. It's this, it's these kids, but it's still, it's still good. It's really authentic and I'm just so enjoying myself with that. So, It's built into my job. There's one thing right there. So like part of my job is to read, is to stay up on top of things. "I, take that seriously. And so "I make time, for that. When you, you have kids, uh, still at your house. My wife and "I are empty, empty nest in it right now. So there's plenty of time to read and, you know, we just gotta turn Netflix off and grab a book and we'll make ourselves do that once in a while. So, it's just, it's something "I. "I can't, "I can't not do it. Just like "I can't not exercise or, or try to play and have fun a little bit. It's just kind of part of who, who "I am Would "I love to read more? Absolutely. You know, so do "I feel like I'm not doing enough? Absolutely. I'd love to work out twice a day too. Is that happening? No, it's not happening. So, you know, um, you gotta do what, what you can do when you can do it. "I think and, take advantage of the streak. So you guys on break yet, or are you going into uh, holiday break here in a, a couple days or are you already on

Luke: 31:30

Yeah, we're, uh, we will be on break in a week and "I have, "I have, uh, a massive book list that "I

Mike: 31:36

"I got a pile?

Luke: 31:37

get through. But it makes me feel good that at least I'm gonna try.

Mike: 31:40

No, it's that potential. pile of books that you got sitting there that that's like, oh yeah, I'm looking forward to getting a chance to sitting down and digging into that. So, um,

Luke: 31:49

it's that damn Netflix. You're right. "I. And you know,

Mike: 31:51

totally. Or, or

Luke: 31:54

example, uh, they just released the Walking Dead "I have zero interest in this whole zombie thing. And "I had zero interest when that show was actually on and "I saw my son like, oh, what's the walking den? He puts it on. Next thing you know, I'm like, consumed by this.

Mike: 32:08

Yeah.

Luke: 32:09

You know, every episode is the same thing essentially, but here "I am like completely locked in. But yeah, that stuff, is very

Mike: 32:16

if you're locked in with your kid next to you though, that's different. Like that's special, right? That's so, you know, that's time and "I think that's one of the things "I loved about the youth sports, was just a long car ride with your kid and you'd hear more stuff on that one car. You know, we're driving three hours across the state to practice, you know, which is absurd if you think about that. But you know what we're really doing? I'm hanging out with my kid for eight straight hours and, six of that is in the par, and we're gonna talk 15 minutes out of that whole time because we're both quiet guys. But that 15 minutes is just gonna be absolute gold. So, I really am grateful for those, the, you know, all that, that time and space to hang out with.

Luke: 33:02

No doubt.

Mike: 33:03

Soak it up. Yeah. Even if you're just watching TV or riding in the car, you

Luke: 33:07

Yeah. My son plays hockey, which like lacrosse, you're, you're traveling all over the country and people will look at our lifestyle and ask, why are you guys crazy? And "I reference exactly what you said. This is undivided time. My son and "I in the car and you know, when he's home just like everybody else, he comes home. How was school?

Mike: 33:29

Yep.

Luke: 33:29

Everything okay? Yep. You have any homework? Nope. And all of a sudden you hear the bedroom door slam and Okay, I'll see you in a few hours. You know that's the way they are at that age. So yeah, that, that undivided attention being in the car. Put your phone away and let's just talk. I. Love it. That's way more important to me. Than the wins and the losses of whatever game or tournament we're, going to play. And so, spot on. But only those of us that live that lifestyle could understand that. So "I know I'm gonna miss it when it's all gone, that's for sure. And that's one thing "I hear from on senior night. My parents of the players "I coach, they're always "I, can't believe. It's all over and how fast it all goes. And it also goes to show how important our job is as coaches that within that small window of four years, think about how many big moments happen within those four years and how many people are hinging on every moment and those four years, which again leads to why they yell at us in the gas station. So, we need to keep, keep all that in perspective

Mike: 34:30

Yeah, no, you're, the benefits far outweigh the, the detraction from that for sure. Cuz you, you just have so. Cool moments and you're there for the, some of the most formative things happening in their lives. and yeah, it's, it's special.

Luke: 34:46

And "I definitely don't wanna go down the rabbit hole of club sports, but "I just want to get your perspective on club sports and travel. Sports and "I mean it's become. A very lucrative business. People are concerned. I'm concerned. You know, we're, we're ranking eight year old basketball players, right? This is the best eight year old point guard in the country and "I see these kids posting and stuff on Instagram. I'm concerned about it. "I really am "I mean, What are your thoughts? Are you concerned with this emphasis we're putting. Being the number one ranked 11 year old team, what are your thoughts?

Mike: 35:27

"I. Well, "I think some of that is, is absurd. Uh, you know, like. We Americans love to rank stuff so that that "I that part of it, "I understand. but the, end game of, you know, winning a travel team game versus getting a exposure and a college scholarship versus, you know, so there's lots of lessons to be learned from it. And like anything you can, you can go too hard with it. And "I, "I see a lot of kids just fry, just burn. Right. And so, we had not really a good filter for that when "I started recruiting at the N C A A level and we got a bunch of kids that were just tired of it, you know, so they had done, they'd done too much, they'd done it all year and not played another sport. and they. just kind of overcooked it and they didn't have a lot of passion for it. So, the last thing "I ask every recruit if they're on campus is, do you love it? And "I just say it like straight up, just like that. And you could tell the kids that just roll out with it like, oh yeah, coach. You know? Yeah. It's so good. And "I love doing this. "I love getting better and "I love playing wild ball and "I love, you know? And. you know, they'll talk about it. And then some guys you can, you can tell they look at their parents first, right? Because like, uh, they're, they're not gonna like the answer because we just spent 20 K to roll around the, you know, United States playing this game. So "I think there's good, really good things. Like if you and "I got to go play a hockey game at some of these tournaments that these kids get to play in these days, it would've been the coolest thing ever when we were kids, you know? So I'd see that and go, man, that was, Yeah, you got to play three games today and stay the night and I'll play far away place and play three more games tomorrow. And man, that'd be it. You know, that'd be really cool. So "I, love that part of it. Um, "I do understand the, the commerce part of it at the college level. You know, it's how our, our assistant coaches make a living, Literally how they make a living. So, You know, my top assistant coach, Chris Shelt, he is a heck of a coach, and he coaches these kids, and that's his job. Like that's his job. He coaches these kids up and he coaches the daylights out of these middle school kids. Like he coaches 'em, like they're, they're grown men and they love it. They eat it up, you know? So, what's great about club is you opt into it. What's the worst thing about club is? Sometimes your parents opt you into it, you know, and that kinda life, that's sort of the way it goes with young people. and if the kid wants it, and the parents are willing to support them and, and chase it "I, think that's pretty cool. "I. And you can learn a lot. You can really learn a lot because you're so motivated to, to do that, which is the other corner of Wooden's pyramid. "I think, right? industriousness and motivation, right? So, if you're fired up about it. Yeah, absolutely. Uh, and you can kind of tell with your kids, right? You know, you can kind of tell if they're fired up or if they're tired of it or if they're ready to, do something else, or if it's, it's time for another season or it's, maybe it's just time to go to the beach or relax a little bit or just mix it up and not do that sort of thing. So "I like anything in life, it's the, the balance. But "I, "I have a hard time being critical of all the opportunities that kids have today. and "I do know that there's some just awesome coaching that's happening, and especially with lacrosse. Your dad probably didn't grow up playing lacrosse, So "I didn't even get to play lacrosse till "I was in college. You know, "I grew up a, a hockey player in a football player and a, a little bit of hoops, you know, in the driveway. "I mean just whatever sport was happening, baseball, you know, was happening. We're playing it. Yeah, "I feel lucky almost that "I came into it later. cuz "I never got burned out on that, so, but you can, yeah, you too much is too much sometimes. And so "I "I think that's probably for parents, the most important thing is just pay attention to your kid is pay attention to what they want and what they're hunting and, you know, the, the. scene is very competitive and the club scene is poaching people from this spot to another spot and all that kind of stuff. But that doesn't mean that you can't find some people that'll be transformational for your kid and really help them learn a ton of lessons, especially if your kid's motivated, cuz they're gonna learn a lot, uh, if they're fired up about that. So,

Luke: 39:55

that, that's a really insightful response and a lot of "I, we could spend an episode just on club sports because it's become such a topic and rightfully so and, and you're right, "I mean, I'll be honest, depending on the day, sometimes "I feel really good about it because like you said, the opportunities of growth and sometimes "I "I question it and "I question the motivat. Of some people. So it's great to hear your assistant coach and the impact that he's having because then I'm okay with it. "I really am and, and I'm gonna give you a little hack out there you know, "I. "I am not a club sport. Football's not a club sport. And "I hope, honestly, "I hope it never is. So what "I do when "I meet freshman coming in as soon as "I hear. That this is a club athlete. Let's use hockey as example. Hockey infamously will burn kids out there. It's all year. There's always ice. They're playing travel. Those are the kids. "I try to recruit out of the hallway because they are burn out of it. Their parents don't always pay attention because they're so competitive. And then once "I get them to step out on a field on one Friday night, they're like, wow, this is nothing like my, uh, Tuesday night hockey game and some ice rink in the middle of, uh, Minnesota, So that is, uh, that's a little hack. But yes, we, we have to be in tune as parents, we also have to be in tune as coaches. And that's one thing "I really try to look out for. When "I need to take my foot off the pedal and maybe give them a day off on a Tuesday, guys, just go home. Right? Just go home and go play video games because it really could be, long season. And speaking of long, we're starting to get up there in length in this podcast. And "I don't wanna keep taking "I. Know you gotta get home and grade papers.

Mike: 41:34

No "I love "I. Love talking to you and "I. Don't bring my papers home to grade anymore. "I can get it done at work, so

Luke: 41:39

there you go. Smart, smart "I. Know "I would always bring 'em home and not even take 'em out of my book bag. So "I got to the point where "I think it's important to be self-aware and not lie to ourselves, but um, I really do appreciate your time and "I "I wanna wrap it up with what's really important and that is the care of the kids that we are in charge of, and I'm sure. You're like me, that you see these kids as your own, And it's really important that we do view 'em that way. How would we want our son and daughter to be treated, in our classroom or on our sports team? So what steps do you take to ensure your players know that you're in it for them and not just for you and your wins?

Mike: 42:19

I think that that is a really difficult thing at the college level, because the kids don't know me the same, if I'm at school with them. you know, the kids that, that are here with me at North Muskegon, they know me way better than the kids. And so the kids are, it's kind of comical, you know, sometimes they're afraid to come and talk to me, at the college level, or they got into some shenanigans on a Saturday night and "I get a phone call from the dean or whatever, and they're, they're just like, they're, they're not going to, communicate with me the same way. And they're, they're not, you know, so it takes a while. extend grace in situations like that to be a good listener, to try to help them through that, cuz that's part, you know, part of the struggle and part of, you know, life lessons and, and so forth. So, just the the, kind of, the comedy of that where it's like, man, "I should be really good at this, but I'm not you know, these guys don't know me that. is an interesting dynamic to my my day. So "I, "I do have to reset. Sometimes "I do have to make an extra effort. What "I would just assume would happen naturally. Um, doesn't always happen, right? And so, as life has a funny way of working things out, you find out when there's a, a situation or some sort of crisis. and "I think that tho those. "I. Look at those as challenges, but also opportunities to get to know that person better and, to work with them, and help them, right. And help them get through whatever they gotta get through and get on to the next thing. And, you know, working with a college kid is so much fun because they're out. Right? You know, these guys who are engineering majors got an internship, they got a job, they're out. You know, they finish in May. We're playing in a tournament. Last game happens the next day. They're out right? They're, they're out of school. They're, they're at a job like a couple days later and they're getting after it, you know, so what a cool thing to be with them. during all those phases of their lives, they, you know, from the recruiting process, we're recruiting kids, you know, who are 2014 or 24, excuse me, uh, graduates, now we're hitting those guys hard. And so, you know, a kid from the time that they're a junior in high school, and you have to spend time to get to know them, to trust that, that they'll fit into your culture and your program and who these people are. And, and then, man, you see 'em six years later and. "I graduate and have a job. And you know, we went to a couple kids' weddings this summer and it, it's really, really cool. It is a really, really neat thing to be able to be part of all of that. So it's a great job. It teaches you to be humble and whenever you feel full yourself, it, it teaches you, again, over and over. And so it's a, it's, it's such a good thing, you know, it's such a good thing. And what a treat to be able to work with these guys and to be part of their lives like,

Luke: 45:09

Yeah, there's no doubt that that relationship piece is what we as coaches relish and it's what, you know, at the end of the day, we really hang our hats on "I mean, cuz that that's way more meaningful than any type of ring trophy. Coach of the year accolade, none of that stuff really matters. It's, it's those relationships and when you are invited to a wedding, when you do get the announcement of the birth of someone's daughter or son like that, that's when you know. "I am a winning coach. "I am a successful coach. The fact that that relationships still exist today. And one thing "I love about this podcast, it's able to create relationships with other coaches in the profession. So it's been great to get to meet you. "I. really enjoyed our conversations. We have a lot of similar interests between coaching and English and hockey and Michigan, and, uh, you know, all these other things. So, I look forward to. continuing relationship, continuing to bounce ideas off each other because the one thing "I do love about, Is, it's an open book and we're, we're all in it to help each other get better because we all want the same thing, and that is to impact someone's life and make the world a better place than the way that we inherit it and we found it. So Coach, thanks so much for being on. Listeners. "I will have, uh, some info on Coach Link, so feel free to reach out to him. He's a, great resource. If you have a great lacrosse player, I'm sure he would love to hear from you. So, thanks so much and happy holidays to you and your family, and best luck of grading all of those papers on final exams.

Mike: 46:39

We're on it. We're on it. Yeah. Thanks so much, coach. It was great to see you and, and "I. Really appreciate the time and, and you extending this invitation to me.